Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #5

Jonathan_S wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:
The mod IS available, for anyone who wants it. It's just that apparently, a lot of people either DON'T want it (at the moment), or possibly can't afford it (yes, the SKM/SEM has a fairly high standard of living, but that doesn't mean everyone can afford everything), or maybe their religion forbids it, or whatever reason you care to imagine.

Sure, it makes sense - to YOU - that everyone on Sphinx (or another high-grav world) ought to have the mods, but people are people, and some will want it/them, and some won't. Just like some people prefer Fords over Chevys (I'm into classic Mopar, myself), and others don't even WANT a car. Are you going to force it on those who don't?

And based on the way the mod works (denser bones, higher efficiency muscles, etc) it's likely something that has to be in place prior to fetal development - so before fertilization.

There's always going to be a certain percentage of a planet like Sphinx that moved there, whether temporarily or permanently, and those people (I assume) can't get the mods. (BTW that group includes Honor's mother) So some percentage won't have mods because they weren't born expecting to move and live on a heavier grav world.

And people there shorter term might well not want to have the mods done for any kids they plan to have because they expect to move back to normal grav worlds in a few years; were the mods don't offer much benefit. Easier to use grav plates or counter grav for those few years to shield their kids from the higher grav rather than permanently change all their descendants DNA.

(And even with virtually perfect contraceptive implants I bet there's still some unplanned pregnancies where "darn I really meant to get the gene mod done before we had kids; but oops. Guess at least the first one will be non-modded")

There is an interesting biology point here. Suppose as a result of colonization 10% of the population has these mods, 1 copy each was enough because they were dominant genetically. Now we go on a fair number of generations. Suppose the mod imposes no reproductive advantages or disadvantages. In that case, at the end, 10% of the population will have the mod.

Are there advantages? In a limited culture, strength could be advantageous. One could propose, in the girl vs large predator scene, that being stronger and faster just might have helped a bit. On the other hand the baby that needs huge amount of food leads to the "dear, two was more than enough. Let's stop." scenario.

phillies wrote:There is an interesting biology point here. Suppose as a result of colonization 10% of the population has these mods, 1 copy each was enough because they were dominant genetically. Now we go on a fair number of generations. Suppose the mod imposes no reproductive advantages or disadvantages. In that case, at the end, 10% of the population will have the mod.

That may be true in 'Real' genetics, but the way RFC has set this up (long before the latest science was discovered be it noted) if one parent has the mod all the kids have it, and all their kids and all their kids forever and ever... Given any reasonable degree of marrying outside themselves by the modded group I don't see how the mod is not going to spread like wildfire through the settled population. Or am I misunderstanding this?

Randomiser wrote:

phillies wrote:There is an interesting biology point here. Suppose as a result of colonization 10% of the population has these mods, 1 copy each was enough because they were dominant genetically. Now we go on a fair number of generations. Suppose the mod imposes no reproductive advantages or disadvantages. In that case, at the end, 10% of the population will have the mod.

That may be true in 'Real' genetics, but the way RFC has set this up (long before the latest science was discovered be it noted) if one parent has the mod all the kids have it, and all their kids and all their kids forever and ever... Given any reasonable degree of marrying outside themselves by the modded group I don't see how the mod is not going to spread like wildfire through the settled population. Or am I misunderstanding this?

The mod could incur some significant drop in evolutionary fitness which would prevent it from spreading. It could do anything from spreading rapidly, to dwindling away. If it only drops fitness a little it could potentially spread through the population while leaving the population unable to sustain its numbers, although hopefully that would act as a new evolutionary pressure so some counter is then developed.

Just say no to Gene Drives. Gene Drives, not even once.

There is an interesting biology point here. Suppose as a result of colonization 10% of the population has these mods, 1 copy each was enough because they were dominant genetically. Now we go on a fair number of generations. Suppose the mod imposes no reproductive advantages or disadvantages. In that case, at the end, 10% of the population will have the mod.

Are there advantages? In a limited culture, strength could be advantageous. One could propose, in the girl vs large predator scene, that being stronger and faster just might have helped a bit. On the other hand the baby that needs huge amount of food leads to the "dear, two was more than enough. Let's stop." scenario.[/quote]


Not quite so fast. It depends on a lot of things. If the modification does provide some advantages- such as being able to survive due to greater strength or being able to have one or more children before sucumbing to death due to system failures brought on by the increased stress and workload on your body by the higher gravity- they you probably get to produce more children then those who do not have the mode over time and generations.

If there is NO advantage to the mods in on a given planet but some active disadvantages, then you may die before you have children. If you have a higher metabolic rate and are prevented from getting enough food that would be a disadvantage but in the current Honorverse, particularly Manticore, you would probably get at least enough to stay healthy unless there is some serious social/economic problem keeping you from food.

Just "no advantage" essentialy would mean that at least ALL of your children would have the same locked mods. They may not be activly helpfull but they would be there and not subject to the nominal 50/50 chance of a recesive gene in the gene pool. It's going to pass along if you have children.

While there is some level of problems with genetic modification at this point in the Honorverse, it appears to be centered around things being done to create super soldiers such as the Scrags or the kind of changes being done by Manpower (and the Alignment) to create slaves for specific duties or occupations. Not, it should be noted, directed at the slaves themselves, but at the people who are crafting the slaves to be be what they want them to be.
To be sure, we are NOT being shown people who have had mods and, short of the purposeful employment of them by Manpower or the Alignment etc, are going about their lives in a life of crime or depravity because they can USE the modifications to harm other people. There may be some, certainly. Jeremy X as a pickpocket and running a "family" in the ideal of the group in Oliver Twist gives the general idea. We just aren't seeing any because they are neither germaine to the plot. We have plenty of people who's entire family lines have been crafted by the Alignment who do more than enough damage without some freed or escaped slave going around playing at Jack the Ripper.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Just say no to Gene Drives. Gene Drives, not even once.

Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Honor when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

Loren Pechtel wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:Just say no to Gene Drives. Gene Drives, not even once.

Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Honor when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

No. Not because she is a genie, but because Haven didn't release Honor (she escaped from the People's Republic of Haven State Security prison planet). The Republic of Haven did release (parole) Mike Henke, but since Mike isn't a genie, they don't get a free wish.

Vince wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:
Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Honor when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

No. Not because she is a genie, but because Haven didn't release Honor (she escaped from the People's Republic of Haven State Security prison planet). The Republic of Haven did release (parole) Mike Henke, but since Mike isn't a genie, they don't get a free wish.

Good point . . . except that Mike is a genie.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that no one (to the best of my memory) has ever made the connection between the SKM's ferocious opposition to genetic slavery and that fact that its ruling dynasty are all genies!

Loren Pechtel wrote:Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Honor when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

Vince wrote:No. Not because she is a genie, but because Haven didn't release Honor (she escaped from the People's Republic of Haven State Security prison planet). The Republic of Haven did release (parole) Mike Henke, but since Mike isn't a genie, they don't get a free wish.

runsforcelery wrote:

Good point . . . except that Mike is a genie.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that no one (to the best of my memory) has ever made the connection between the SKM's ferocious opposition to genetic slavery and that fact that its ruling dynasty are all genies!

Which then brings back up the original question by Loren Pechtel (paraphrased to refer to Mike and not Honor):

Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Mike when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

Vince wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Honor when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

Vince wrote:No. Not because she is a genie, but because Haven didn't release Honor (she escaped from the People's Republic of Haven State Security prison planet). The Republic of Haven did release (parole) Mike Henke, but since Mike isn't a genie, they don't get a free wish.

runsforcelery wrote:

Good point . . . except that Mike is a genie.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that no one (to the best of my memory) has ever made the connection between the SKM's ferocious opposition to genetic slavery and that fact that its ruling dynasty are all genies!

Which then brings back up the original question by Loren Pechtel (paraphrased to refer to Mike and not Honor):

Would Haven have gotten a free wish for releasing Mike when they captured her? After all, she's a genie!

'peace in our time'??

There also can be non rational drivers of reproductive selection in the gene pool. What if some of the enhancements as a side effect led to buck teeth, or alternatively to exciting violet eyes? Not all genetic advantages make actual sense in coping with an environment. If they did then all birds would have camouflage colouring.