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Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:54 am

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roseandheather wrote:
Explain to the physics dumbass like she's five please: what are Lagrange points?

A Lagrange point is a location in space where the combined gravitational forces of two large bodies, such as Earth and the sun or Earth and the moon, equal the centrifugal force felt by a much smaller third body.Aug 21, 2017
Lagrange Points: Parking Places in Space
By Elizabeth Howell, Space.com Contributor
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:01 am

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JohnRoth wrote:SNIP

Do we have any textev that Mesa has a single largish moon? No moon, no Lagrange points.


isaac_newton wrote:well, IIRC they could be Sun-Mesa Lagrange points, not necessarily Mesa-'largish moon' Lagrange points


roseandheather wrote:Explain to the physics dumbass like she's five please: what are Lagrange points?


They are five points where you can stash a satellite or orbital habitat and expect it to stay put rather than be in orbit. (Yes, I know that's simplified a bit.) They're usually numbered L1 through L5. L1 is always between the planet and its moon, L2 is on the same line but beyond the moon, L3 is on the same line on the other side of the planet from the moon. They all orbit the same as the moon.

We currently have satellites in the first two Earth-Sun Lagrange points since L1 stays on the line between the Earth and the Sun while L2 is on the same line on the far side of the Earth. L3 is where bad SF puts a "counter-Earth", such as Gor. If you don't get the reference, consider yourself lucky.

There's discussion about putting an Earth-Moon transfer stations in the Earth-Moon L1 and some far-side-of-the-Moon com satellites in the Earth-Moon L2, but as far as I know there's nothing there now.

For story purposes, L1 is between Mesa and Mesa's hypothetical moon, much closer to the moon than to Mesa, and also closer to the Moon than geo-synchronous orbit.

Even if it exists, I tend to question why anyone would put an orbital habitat there: it would be too far out for convenience, and traffic would still have to match orbits with things that are farther in. Even more so for the Sun-Mesa L1 and L2 points.

Wikipedia has a fairly decent article.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by roseandheather   » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:52 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:SNIP

Do we have any textev that Mesa has a single largish moon? No moon, no Lagrange points.


isaac_newton wrote:well, IIRC they could be Sun-Mesa Lagrange points, not necessarily Mesa-'largish moon' Lagrange points


roseandheather wrote:Explain to the physics dumbass like she's five please: what are Lagrange points?


They are five points where you can stash a satellite or orbital habitat and expect it to stay put rather than be in orbit. (Yes, I know that's simplified a bit.) They're usually numbered L1 through L5. L1 is always between the planet and its moon, L2 is on the same line but beyond the moon, L3 is on the same line on the other side of the planet from the moon. They all orbit the same as the moon.

We currently have satellites in the first two Earth-Sun Lagrange points since L1 stays on the line between the Earth and the Sun while L2 is on the same line on the far side of the Earth. L3 is where bad SF puts a "counter-Earth", such as Gor. If you don't get the reference, consider yourself lucky.

There's discussion about putting an Earth-Moon transfer stations in the Earth-Moon L1 and some far-side-of-the-Moon com satellites in the Earth-Moon L2, but as far as I know there's nothing there now.

For story purposes, L1 is between Mesa and Mesa's hypothetical moon, much closer to the moon than to Mesa, and also closer to the Moon than geo-synchronous orbit.

Even if it exists, I tend to question why anyone would put an orbital habitat there: it would be too far out for convenience, and traffic would still have to match orbits with things that are farther in. Even more so for the Sun-Mesa L1 and L2 points.

Wikipedia has a fairly decent article.


Thank you! :mrgreen:
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:44 am

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roseandheather wrote:[quote="JohnRoth] SNIP
They are five points where you can stash a satellite or orbital habitat and expect it to stay put rather than be in orbit. (Yes, I know that's simplified a bit.) They're usually numbered L1 through L5. L1 is always between the planet and its moon, L2 is on the same line but beyond the moon, L3 is on the same line on the other side of the planet from the moon. They all orbit the same as the moon.

We currently have satellites in the first two Earth-Sun Lagrange points since L1 stays on the line between the Earth and the Sun while L2 is on the same line on the far side of the Earth. L3 is where bad SF puts a "counter-Earth", such as Gor. If you don't get the reference, consider yourself lucky.

There's discussion about putting an Earth-Moon transfer stations in the Earth-Moon L1 and some far-side-of-the-Moon com satellites in the Earth-Moon L2, but as far as I know there's nothing there now.

For story purposes, L1 is between Mesa and Mesa's hypothetical moon, much closer to the moon than to Mesa, and also closer to the Moon than geo-synchronous orbit.

Even if it exists, I tend to question why anyone would put an orbital habitat there: it would be too far out for convenience, and traffic would still have to match orbits with things that are farther in. Even more so for the Sun-Mesa L1 and L2 points.

Wikipedia has a fairly decent article.[/quote]

Thank you! :mrgreen:[/quote]


BTW L4 and L5 are stable points, so stuff placed there will stay put, without needed any corrections. Apparently some moons in the Jupiter and Saturn systems have little moons at their L4 & L5 points.

L4 & L5 lie in the same orbit as the smaller body of the sun/planet OR planet/moon pair, but are 'ahead' or 'behind'...

The other points are semi stable [I think that applies to L3 - on far side of Mesa to a moon], so need to do occasional 'pushes' to keep in place...
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by JohnRoth   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:03 am

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JohnRoth wrote: SNIP
They are five points where you can stash a satellite or orbital habitat and expect it to stay put rather than be in orbit. (Yes, I know that's simplified a bit.) They're usually numbered L1 through L5. L1 is always between the planet and its moon, L2 is on the same line but beyond the moon, L3 is on the same line on the other side of the planet from the moon. They all orbit the same as the moon.

We currently have satellites in the first two Earth-Sun Lagrange points since L1 stays on the line between the Earth and the Sun while L2 is on the same line on the far side of the Earth. L3 is where bad SF puts a "counter-Earth", such as Gor. If you don't get the reference, consider yourself lucky.

There's discussion about putting an Earth-Moon transfer stations in the Earth-Moon L1 and some far-side-of-the-Moon com satellites in the Earth-Moon L2, but as far as I know there's nothing there now.

For story purposes, L1 is between Mesa and Mesa's hypothetical moon, much closer to the moon than to Mesa, and also closer to the Moon than geo-synchronous orbit.

Even if it exists, I tend to question why anyone would put an orbital habitat there: it would be too far out for convenience, and traffic would still have to match orbits with things that are farther in. Even more so for the Sun-Mesa L1 and L2 points.

Wikipedia has a fairly decent article.


roseandheather wrote:Thank you! :mrgreen:



isaac_newton wrote:BTW L4 and L5 are stable points, so stuff placed there will stay put, without needed any corrections. Apparently some moons in the Jupiter and Saturn systems have little moons at their L4 & L5 points.

L4 & L5 lie in the same orbit as the smaller body of the sun/planet OR planet/moon pair, but are 'ahead' or 'behind'...

The other points are semi stable [I think that applies to L3 - on far side of Mesa to a moon], so need to do occasional 'pushes' to keep in place...


Yeah. I left them out deliberately because they're a full 60 degrees ahead of and behind the smaller body, so they're pretty much irrelevant to understanding the main point, which was whether there actually was an L1 point for a "Lagrange 1" habitat to occupy.

They also tend to collect debris; I understand that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of Trojan astroids in Jupiter's Trojan points. That makes them pretty useless for permanent installations.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:09 am

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JohnRoth wrote: SNIP

isaac_newton wrote:BTW L4 and L5 are stable points, so stuff placed there will stay put, without needed any corrections. Apparently some moons in the Jupiter and Saturn systems have little moons at their L4 & L5 points.

L4 & L5 lie in the same orbit as the smaller body of the sun/planet OR planet/moon pair, but are 'ahead' or 'behind'...

The other points are semi stable [I think that applies to L3 - on far side of Mesa to a moon], so need to do occasional 'pushes' to keep in place...


Yeah. I left them out deliberately because they're a full 60 degrees ahead of and behind the smaller body, so they're pretty much irrelevant to understanding the main point, which was whether there actually was an L1 point for a "Lagrange 1" habitat to occupy.

They also tend to collect debris; I understand that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of Trojan astroids in Jupiter's Trojan points. That makes them pretty useless for permanent installations.


Ah yes. I'd temporarily forgotten we were discussing Lagrange 'One' specifically. :-)

I was just 'enjoying' the idea of the LP's...
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:09 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:<snip>

They also tend to collect debris; I understand that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of Trojan astroids in Jupiter's Trojan points. That makes them pretty useless for permanent installations.


Some people call it debris. Other People call it pre-placed raw materials.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:05 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:But would there have been enough time to set up the delays to make it seem as if the origin point was Mike's fleet?


Sure. If the capability was built in at the time the initial system was set up (or added later.) All it should take is someone with the appropriate authorizations to insert the desired delays into the network that triggers the explosions.

If it wasn't built into the network, no dice.

Although I seriously doubt if Albrecht has the experience to do it. Unless it's something as simple as a "make it look like it comes from this place" command, where this place could be a ship in orbit.


That assumes he knows where the fleet is.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:20 pm

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roseandheather wrote:Explain to the physics dumbass like she's five please: what are Lagrange points?


When you have a large body and a lesser but still substantial body orbiting it you get 5 points where gravity doesn't behave exactly as you would expect in a simplistic look at it.

Three of the points line on a line that goes through the center of both bodies. All three of these points have an orbit whose period is exactly the same as the lesser body even though they are not at quite the same distance at the body.

One is between the lesser body and the main body. The pull of the lesser body allows the orbit to match it's period even though it's closer to the big body. The second is outside the lesser body, this time the lesser body pulling it in allows an orbit with the same period even though it's farther out. These two points can be used to make a satellite keep station with a planet while being beyond normal orbital altitude. The third is on the opposite side of the larger body and isn't of anything but a mathematical curiosity.

The other two points lie in the orbit of the lesser body, 60 degrees ahead and 60 degrees behind the lesser body. These have value in that they act as attractors--nearby objects tend to get drawn towards the points. This is good for keeping spacecraft in place and for a large enough body it will even pull in asteroids. The Greek asteroids are in Jupiter's leading Lagrange point and the Trojan asteroids are in it's trailing point.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by kzt   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:14 pm

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You get less points if there is not a large satellite. IIRC, you get the leading and trailing points and the one between the planet and the sun. The other 2 don't exist.
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