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Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:22 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 1889
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:39 am
Location: South Carolina

isaac_newton wrote:
Eagleeye wrote:Thanks for the explanation, RFC, but I still have a question. The news of Operation Beatrice hit the Alignment unexpected. I think, that's safe to say. They reacted to that news by activation of Oyster Bay; even if they knew the Oyster Bay they could manage wasn't the operation they intended initially. They planned to wait, because they wanted to use the Detweilers, if I remember correctly.

But if things are rushing - and do it in a way they're not expected to - should that not ring some alarm bells? Why not analyze the new situation and adapt their plans as far as possible?

Or is the ... age of this conspiracy somewhat like a mental rock? Is the MAlign simply not on the right mental footing for making such drastic decisions in time - even if they think they are?



runsforcelery wrote:
What make you think they haven't?

SNIP

trying to ride a rather skittish mount, as Giancola’s machinations demonstrated. It was entirely possible that it would be possible to engineer the departure of Eloise Pritchart/Boris Yeltsin and replace her with Arnold Giancola Mark II/Vladimir Putin, at which point they could be off to the races once more. In fact, a Republic of Haven which returned to the model of the People’s Republic of Haven after having acquired the Manticoran Wormhole Junction and ingested Manticore’s tech would be an even more dangerous threat to the League in the fullness of time. And, of course, the Alignment could go right ahead with its plan to feed the League the amount of tech needed to be sure that the war between it and Haven was as mutually destructive as necessary.
SNIP .



Really appreciate this snippet and the earlier explanation of the time lines.

BUT - are you being careful of your own health? Comparing Eloise to Boris Yeltsin may get a certain Rose after you with the extra sharpe pitch forks!!



Only functionally, Rose! Only FUNCTIONALLY!

It was just an analogy! I swear!


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by NervousEnergy   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:36 pm

NervousEnergy
Commander

Posts: 237
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:50 pm

Henry Brown wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
Well, there are roughly 288,000 words in the manuscript. So if I hold myself to 1 snippet a week and the snippets to no more than 1,500 words, 52 snippets would be 78,000 words, or about 27%. (Doesn't count Rosie snips, of course! :lol:) I really don't like snippeting much more than that, but 78-80,000 words would probably work out just fine. And, of course, the EARC will be available for those of you who want it well before next November!


Do you have any idea yet when the EARC will be available? I firmly fall in the "want it well before next November" category!

Probably be better off pestering Toni W over at the Bar. There's already a thread for that, BTW. ;)

I'm really surprised at that timeline post turn-in. Baen has typically published an Honorverse novel 6-8 months after getting the manuscript, with the eARC going out 30-60 days after. Given the unprecedented 14 month gap it's hard to figure when she'll release the eARC.

From a readiness angle she could probably release it next month. The eARC represents pure gravy for both Baen and the MWW, so hopefully they won't sit on it too long. I have no insight as to sales figures or eARC vs. Kindle vs. Dead Tree sales for the MWWs works (publishers keep that pretty close to the vest, unfortunately), but I'd be surprised if the eARC had any material impact on hardback/Kindle sales of the finished book.

Edit: And thanks to the Mad Wizard for giving us that excellent date/event summary. It's boggling how much has gone on, narratively, in less than 2 years.

The sweep of this series is unrivaled in Science Fiction, IMHO. Only CJ Cherryh comes close.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by iranuke   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:10 pm

iranuke
Commander

Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Longview, WA

I'm going to guess that this conversation happens November-December 1922 PD. Mike showed up in October so travel time for the info should be 1-2 months, right?

runsforcelery wrote:I'm going to have to go back into lower profile mode here, because I'm working on two projects simultaneously that both need attention. I'll try to drop back in from time to time, though, and I'm going to aim for one in-order snippet a week. (Book's not coming out until next November, guys.) However, since I've been giving you out of order snippets, here's one more.

I think you can guess what they're upset about.

Did I ever mention that angry people sometimes make less than optimal decisions? ;)

__________________________________________________

“None of that would’ve been necessary if not for the fucking Manties.” Gervais’s voice was a snarl. “It’s that goddamned loose warhead Gold Peak’s fault. If she weren’t such a maniac, if we hadn’t known she’d be coming for Mesa as soon as she possibly could, we wouldn’t have had to rush Houdini that way and Mom and Dad would be right here on Darius right now.”

A sort of sub-aural growl answered him, but Collin shook his head.

“Gold Peak may be the one who actually pulled the trigger, but it wasn’t just her. It was her whole damned ‘Star Empire’ and their goddamned friends. All of them. Elizabeth, Mayhew, Pritchart . . . and that bitch Harrington.”
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:59 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 1889
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:39 am
Location: South Carolina

NervousEnergy wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:
Do you have any idea yet when the EARC will be available? I firmly fall in the "want it well before next November" category!

Probably be better off pestering Toni W over at the Bar. There's already a thread for that, BTW. ;)

I'm really surprised at that timeline post turn-in. Baen has typically published an Honorverse novel 6-8 months after getting the manuscript, with the eARC going out 30-60 days after. Given the unprecedented 14 month gap it's hard to figure when she'll release the eARC.

From a readiness angle she could probably release it next month. The eARC represents pure gravy for both Baen and the MWW, so hopefully they won't sit on it too long. I have no insight as to sales figures or eARC vs. Kindle vs. Dead Tree sales for the MWWs works (publishers keep that pretty close to the vest, unfortunately), but I'd be surprised if the eARC had any material impact on hardback/Kindle sales of the finished book.

Edit: And thanks to the Mad Wizard for giving us that excellent date/event summary. It's boggling how much has gone on, narratively, in less than 2 years.

The sweep of this series is unrivaled in Science Fiction, IMHO. Only CJ Cherryh comes close.


Toni didn't schedule it until she had a firm turn-in date, which she didn't get until July. (Remember that what was going on last fall created a certain . . . uncertainty about my delivery schedule.) By then, the slots in the first two quarters of 2018 were completely full and that may have been true of the third quarter, as well. Even if it wasn't, she'd probably have held it till the fourth quarter in order to hit the holiday sales with what is going to be --- correctly --- marketed as the wrap up of the arc that began in OBS.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by GregD   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:25 pm

GregD
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:29 am

runsforcelery wrote:
And, of course, the EARC will be available for those of you who want it well before next November!


Is that a promise? Toni seems to really like delaying the damn things
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:44 pm

JohnRoth
Admiral

Posts: 2232
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:54 am
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA

GregD wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
And, of course, the EARC will be available for those of you who want it well before next November!


Is that a promise? Toni seems to really like delaying the damn things


What delay?

Let's cover the history. ARCs (advanced reader copies) were originally dead tree versions that were given to people in the industry who had influence on buying the books in bulk, showing it in stores, writing reviews the day it was available to the public and similar. In other words, part of the marketing process.

Then they started showing up on eBay for completely ridiculous prices. Apparently some people really do have too much time and money on their hands.

Making an electronic version available to fans was a completely commercial response to that. However, the amount Baen gets from the fans is a whole lot less than what they get from getting the book into the hands of people who can get it prime space in stores so they can read it and make decisions.

Making eARCs available to the general public is simply a way of getting some fans to buy the book twice. Or three times. Of course, it may also have some word-of-mouth effect for the marketing campaign.

The timing of the release will be decided by marketing.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:15 am

Robert_A_Woodward
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:29 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
(SNIP, of various including my assertion that Houdini should have been activated earlier)

Okay, let’s look at some timeline here. Now, I realize that I have an unfair advantage in that I actually have the complete timeline, but the general sequence of what I’m going to be talking about should be pretty clear from the books.

Battle of Monica – 2/22/1921
(snip)
Operation Beatrice (First Battle of Manticore) — 7/24/21
(snip)
Oyster Bay — 2/26/22
(snip)
news of 2nd Manticore (and the Grand Alliance) reaches Mesa — 6/20/22
Operation Houdini stood up — 6/21/22
Mike Henke leaves Montana for Tillerman — 7/10/22
Mike Henke leaves Tillerman for the Myers System — 7/21/22
Mike Henke conquers the Myers System — 8/11/22
Mike Henke invades Mesa — 11/3/22

Now, this means that a total of almost exactly 16 months pass between the Battle of Monica and the beginning of Operation Houdini. But only four months pass between Oyster Bay and Albrecht Detweiler’s decision to order an expedited Operation Houdini following the 2nd Battle of Manticore.

(SNIP of David Weber's entire exposition)


IMHO, Houdini should have been activated when Oyster Bay was authorized several days after 1st Manticore (i.e., 11 months earlier than Houdini actually was). Furthermore, sufficiently cautious conspirators should have planned on disappearing BEFORE they go active with Prometheus.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Vince   » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:51 am

Vince
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1456
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
(SNIP, of various including my assertion that Houdini should have been activated earlier)

Okay, let’s look at some timeline here. Now, I realize that I have an unfair advantage in that I actually have the complete timeline, but the general sequence of what I’m going to be talking about should be pretty clear from the books.

Battle of Monica – 2/22/1921
(snip)
Operation Beatrice (First Battle of Manticore) — 7/24/21
(snip)
Oyster Bay — 2/26/22
(snip)
news of 2nd Manticore (and the Grand Alliance) reaches Mesa — 6/20/22
Operation Houdini stood up — 6/21/22
Mike Henke leaves Montana for Tillerman — 7/10/22
Mike Henke leaves Tillerman for the Myers System — 7/21/22
Mike Henke conquers the Myers System — 8/11/22
Mike Henke invades Mesa — 11/3/22

Now, this means that a total of almost exactly 16 months pass between the Battle of Monica and the beginning of Operation Houdini. But only four months pass between Oyster Bay and Albrecht Detweiler’s decision to order an expedited Operation Houdini following the 2nd Battle of Manticore.

(SNIP of David Weber's entire exposition)


IMHO, Houdini should have been activated when Oyster Bay was authorized several days after 1st Manticore (i.e., 11 months earlier than Houdini actually was). Furthermore, sufficiently cautious conspirators should have planned on disappearing BEFORE they go active with Prometheus.

I would say if you are going to poke a manticore, don't do it from an exposed position. And the Mesan Alignment should have known it was in a precarious position (for those Mesan Alignment personnel physically on Mesa) having used Manpower and Mesa to poke Manticore in the original Talbott operation. The Alignment should have activated or accelerated Houdini shortly after the conversation (2 weeks later, after the freighter Marianne failed to report in) with Aldona Anisimovna, Isabel Bardasano, and Albrecht Detweiler where the failure of the Talbott operation was discussed in At All Costs. Bardasano puts her finger on the key information:
At All Costs, Chapter 47 wrote:"Well, ladies," Albrecht Detweiler said from behind the desk workstation, without inviting either of them to be seated, "things don't appear to have gone very well in Talbott, after all."
"No, they haven't," Anisimovna agreed, her voice as level as possible. Detweiler regarded her thoughtfully, as if waiting for her to add something more to that bare agreement, but she knew better than to offer any hint of an excuse. Especially not when he'd kept the two of them waiting, and stewing in their own juice, for almost three standard days since their return from the Republic of Monica.
"Why not?" he asked after a moment.
"Because of a chain of circumstances we were unable to predict," Isabel Bardasano said, her voice as level as Anisimovna's had been.
"I was under the impression that proper planning allowed for all contingencies," Detweiler observed.
"Good planning allows for all the contingencies the planner can think of," Bardasano corrected in an amazingly calm tone. "This particular set of contingencies was impossible to anticipate, since no one can allow for freak circumstances which are inherently impossible to predict."
"That sounds remarkably like an excuse, Isabel."
"I prefer to think of it as an explanation, Albrecht," Bardasano said, while Anisimovna tried to focus her attention on one of Detweiler's pre-space oil paintings. "Under certain circumstances, explanations are also excuses, of course. You asked us why things didn't work out as planned, however. That's why."
Detweiler gazed at her, his lips very slightly pursed, his eyes narrowed, and she looked back squarely. One thing about her, Anisimovna thought; she didn't lack nerve. Whether her lack of fear was completely sane or not was another matter.
"Very well, Isabel," Detweiler said finally. "'Explain' what happened."
"We don't know yet, not fully," she admitted. "We won't know for some time. The only hard fact we have at this time is that somehow a Manty cruiser captain named Terekhov and Bernardus Van Dort figured out what was happening. Terekhov put together what I strongly suspect was a completely unauthorized attack on Monica. And as Aldona and I told you at our last meeting, the program to refit the battlecruisers we—or, rather, Technodyne—were providing had fallen behind schedule."
"You also informed me that there was ample cushion in your timetable," Detweiler interrupted in a deceptively pleasant voice.
If he'd intended to put Bardasano off her pace, he failed. She simply looked at him for a moment, then nodded.
"Yes, we did. And it was an accurate statement. In fact, Izrok Levakonic and the Monicans had managed to get three of the battlecruisers completely refitted and manned before Terekhov showed up, and the biggest unit he had was a heavy cruiser. Had he delayed his arrival for another week, four more Indefatigables would have been ready for action, as well. Under normal circumstances, however, I believe most people would have felt three Solarian League battlecruisers, with up-to-date electronics and weapons fits, ought to have been able to deal with five cruisers and four destroyers."
"Apparently, they would have been wrong," Detweiler said. "And, I might point out to you, if I were inclined to pick nits, that one of the objectives of the operation was to obtain specimens of Manty hardware specifically because we knew it was better than Solly equipment."
"Granted," Bardasano replied. "I would submit, however, that its degree of superiority was greater than anyone had anticipated, including Technodyne."
"I'm much less well versed in technical matters than Isabel, Albrecht," Aldona said, speaking up in support of her colleague, "but we did discuss this with Levakonic. He felt confident of maintaining Monica's security with the combination of missile pods he'd deployed and the battlecruisers already in commission. That part of the operation was his responsibility, and we relied on his expert opinion."
Detweiler switched his gaze to her, and she made herself look back calmly. He appeared to consider her words for several seconds, then gave a tiny shrug.
"I suppose that was reasonable enough, under the circumstances," he said. "However," he continued before Anisimovna's nerves could begin to unknot themselves, "even granting that, the fact that the Manties and this Van Dort somehow tumbled to what was going on speaks poorly of your operational security."
"At this point," Bardasano said, "we don't know how our security was penetrated. I see two possibilities. One is that the penetration took place on the Monican side. President Tyler and his closest advisers had to be brought fully into the picture, at least as far as their part of the operation was concerned. Their security arrangements were beyond our control, and we don't know how or where they might have been breached.
"The second possibility," she continued unflinchingly, "is that the penetration was on our side of the operation. In that case, the most likely scenario is that this Terekhov literally stumbled over the Marianne."
"Marianne?" Detweiler repeated.
"The special ops ship we were using to deliver weapons to our proxies," Bardasano explained. "We've used her and her crew dozens of times before. They're reliable and experienced in this sort of covert operation, and using our own ship and our own people let us maintain a far lower profile and avoid an entire additional layer of potential leaks."
"So why do you think she could be involved?"
"Because she's the only direct link between our terrorist proxies and Monica." Bardasano shrugged. "Izrok needed emergency transportation for additional shipyard technicians. Marianne was already headed for the Cluster. He asked me if we could transport them for him, and I agreed. Apparently, I shouldn't have."
She made the admission without flinching, and a flicker of what might have been approval showed in Detweiler's eyes.
"If she is the clue the Manties picked up on," she continued, "they must have taken at least some of her personnel and sweated them. They don't actually know anything about the Monican side of the operation, but they do know they delivered technicians to Monica. That could have been enough. Unfortunately, we probably won't know whether or not that's what actually happened for some time. Marianne's movement schedule means we don't expect contact with her for another couple of weeks."

"This is all speculation," Detweiler remarked, and Bardasano and Anisimovna both nodded.
"We barely managed to get out of Monica, and take the only Frontier Security personnel directly involved in the operation with us," Anisimovna said. "We couldn't afford to wait around for any more details. If they'd captured Isabel or myself—"
She broke off, and it was Detweiler's turn to nod.
"Point taken," he acknowledged. He considered them silently for several more seconds, then seemed to reach a decision.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:18 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4751
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:27 pm

Hi Robert_A_Woodward,

Hello RFC!

Thank you very much for the timeline.

Has there been a retcon on hyper velocities?

My major concern is with the time needed to get to and from New Tuscany besides others that simply don't allow enough time; given 3000C is still the top speed for the non-MAlign, it would imply NT was only 111 LY from Spindle [13.5 days at 8.22 LY/day] when its a few hundred IIRC.

There were other occasions before I noticed all the snips in this post, my fault of course, but the time required exceeding the cited travel time is demonstrated here several times [sorry for the redundancy] and I wondered if there might be a hyper stream as in HAE, convenient to NT-Spindle and the others, NT to Mesa, Meyers to Mesa, etc.

Hoping for the best explanation,

L


Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
(SNIP, of various including my assertion that Houdini should have been activated earlier)

Okay, let’s look at some timeline here. Now, I realize that I have an unfair advantage in that I actually have the complete timeline, but the general sequence of what I’m going to be talking about should be pretty clear from the books.

Battle of Monica – 2/22/1921
(snip)
Operation Beatrice (First Battle of Manticore) — 7/24/21
(snip)
Oyster Bay — 2/26/22
(snip)
news of 2nd Manticore (and the Grand Alliance) reaches Mesa — 6/20/22
Operation Houdini stood up — 6/21/22
Mike Henke leaves Montana for Tillerman — 7/10/22
Mike Henke leaves Tillerman for the Myers System — 7/21/22
Mike Henke conquers the Myers System — 8/11/22
Mike Henke invades Mesa — 11/3/22

Now, this means that a total of almost exactly 16 months pass between the Battle of Monica and the beginning of Operation Houdini. But only four months pass between Oyster Bay and Albrecht Detweiler’s decision to order an expedited Operation Houdini following the 2nd Battle of Manticore.

(SNIP of David Weber's entire exposition)


IMHO, Houdini should have been activated when Oyster Bay was authorized several days after 1st Manticore (i.e., 11 months earlier than Houdini actually was). Furthermore, sufficiently cautious conspirators should have planned on disappearing BEFORE they go active with Prometheus.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:01 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 1889
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:39 am
Location: South Carolina

lyonheart wrote:Hi Robert_A_Woodward,

Hello RFC!

Thank you very much for the timeline.

Has there been a retcon on hyper velocities?

My major concern is with the time needed to get to and from New Tuscany besides others that simply don't allow enough time; given 3000C is still the top speed for the non-MAlign, it would imply NT was only 111 LY from Spindle [13.5 days at 8.22 LY/day] when its a few hundred IIRC.

There were other occasions before I noticed all the snips in this post, my fault of course, but the time required exceeding the cited travel time is demonstrated here several times [sorry for the redundancy] and I wondered if there might be a hyper stream as in HAE, convenient to NT-Spindle and the others, NT to Mesa, Meyers to Mesa, etc.

Hoping for the best explanation,

L




You remember the distance between Spindle and New Tuscany incorrectly.

It's only about 150 light years. I'd have to go check my notes to give you the exact distance.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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