Strategic Planning

i expect the closet we will come to seeing manty commerce raiding is the sequestrating of ships and crew of any solly flagged merchants that try to force their way through a wormhole not believing that the manties mean it when they say it is closed to solly traffic.

And now the mirror.

How about planning to deal with SLN commerce raiding?

Dauntless wrote:i expect the closet we will come to seeing manty commerce raiding is the sequestrating of ships and crew of any solly flagged merchants that try to force their way through a wormhole not believing that the manties mean it when they say it is closed to solly traffic.

No commercial skipper in his right mind attempts to go through a wormhole without the guidance of traffic control.

JohnRoth wrote:

Dauntless wrote:i expect the closet we will come to seeing manty commerce raiding is the sequestrating of ships and crew of any solly flagged merchants that try to force their way through a wormhole not believing that the manties mean it when they say it is closed to solly traffic.

No commercial skipper in his right mind attempts to go through a wormhole without the guidance of traffic control.

Going back to a previous book wherein there was an attempt by a SLN detachment to fore a ship through, That ship would have probably been fair game had the issue been pressed and ships actually fired upon for effect.

Back to Givens, if I may. ONI knows about Case Buccaneer and should assume that Beowulf and any other star nation trying to secede would be fair game for CB. Operation Buccaneer, as portrayed by the snippet, is not a logical [to me anyway] progression of Case Buccaneer. They are picking a non-aligned and non-militarized planet that they have expressed no interest in previously and are attacking it solely because it trades with Beowulf.

If the strategy is to deny the SL Bureaucracy funding, without causing planets themselves more pain than necessary, then blowing up random planetary orbitals and shipping would seem contraindicated. Yes take out SLN facilities Take out TIY infrastructure wherever it is. If there are termini that can't readily be seized [ ] blow up the infrastructure. It will take almost the scope of UH for SL shipping routes to develop and solidify such as they are and what little of it there is.

So many SL planets so little operational ability. They are committed to locating and aiding all the planets in Operation Janus and supporting Barregos in Smoking Frog (Mayan Sector) Mike Admiral Gold Peak has run as far as she can on her own authority at the close of SoV.

Running willy nilly through SL space searching for targets of opportunity is not a good operational plan. They have plenty of fires to put out, an O'Halloran crisis to deal with, a Bolthole plot to develop, An entire Mesan planet to omb through for traces of this ridiculous Alignment fantasy of theirs to even be getting on with knocking out hapless civilian ships.

pappilon wrote:

Dauntless wrote:i expect the closet we will come to seeing manty commerce raiding is the sequestrating of ships and crew of any solly flagged merchants that try to force their way through a wormhole not believing that the manties mean it when they say it is closed to solly traffic.

Going back to a previous book wherein there was an attempt by a SLN detachment to fore a ship through, That ship would have probably been fair game had the issue been pressed and ships actually fired upon for effect.

Back to Givens, if I may. ONI knows about Case Buccaneer and should assume that Beowulf and any other star nation trying to secede would be fair game for CB. Operation Buccaneer, as portrayed by the snippet, is not a logical [to me anyway] progression of Case Buccaneer. They are picking a non-aligned and non-militarized planet that they have expressed no interest in previously and are attacking it solely because it trades with Beowulf.

If the strategy is to deny the SL Bureaucracy funding, without causing planets themselves more pain than necessary, then blowing up random planetary orbitals and shipping would seem contraindicated. Yes take out SLN facilities Take out TIY infrastructure wherever it is. If there are termini that can't readily be seized [ ] blow up the infrastructure. It will take almost the scope of UH for SL shipping routes to develop and solidify such as they are and what little of it there is.

So many SL planets so little operational ability. They are committed to locating and aiding all the planets in Operation Janus and supporting Barregos in Smoking Frog (Mayan Sector) Mike Admiral Gold Peak has run as far as she can on her own authority at the close of SoV.

Running willy nilly through SL space searching for targets of opportunity is not a good operational plan. They have plenty of fires to put out, an O'Halloran crisis to deal with, a Bolthole plot to develop, An entire Mesan planet to omb through for traces of this ridiculous Alignment fantasy of theirs to even be getting on with knocking out hapless civilian ships.

Based on the most recent snippet, it looks like the idiots at the League will attack independent planet systems. An interesting way to head off revolts in the Assembly.

Of course, they are so stupid they name it Operation Buccaneer. Imagine what happens when a ship containing orders under those name is captured and presented to the public.

ldwechsler wrote:Of course, they are so stupid they name it Operation Buccaneer. Imagine what happens when a ship containing orders under those name is captured and presented to the public.

I have to point out that, other then say operation buttercup, the choice of code names by everyone in the honorverse is completely terrible. So it's not just the SLN. It's the MA and the RMN and the RHN.

kzt wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Of course, they are so stupid they name it Operation Buccaneer. Imagine what happens when a ship containing orders under those name is captured and presented to the public.

I have to point out that, other then say operation buttercup, the choice of code names by everyone in the honorverse is completely terrible. So it's not just the SLN. It's the MA and the RMN and the RHN.

I always attributed it to attrition. Websters dictionary is just so large and with so many sorties over the prolonged life of wars in the Honorverse, all of the good ones have been used. And used. And used...

At least Case Buccaneer is calling a pirate a pirate.

kzt wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Of course, they are so stupid they name it Operation Buccaneer. Imagine what happens when a ship containing orders under those name is captured and presented to the public.

I have to point out that, other then say operation buttercup, the choice of code names by everyone in the honorverse is completely terrible. So it's not just the SLN. It's the MA and the RMN and the RHN.

The RMN is actually pretty good at deceptive operational names . . . when they feel like it. Other times, they choose the name for --- dare I say it? --- PR purposes. And, of course, PR can also apply to inspiring the troops. Honor actually sorta kinda discusses this --- with Elizabeth, I think --- in the current book.

The SLN has a lot less imagination, and the League is so "All Under Heaven" in its thinking that it's way out of practice worrying about neutral opinion. In fact, there is no neutral opinion --- or not legitimate opinion anyone needs to deal with, anyway --- in the traditional Solarian view of the galaxy. Don't worry about it. We'll tell the neo-barbs (which means anyone who's not a Solly, though we're far too polite to say so to their faces) what to think, and everything will be fine. And if it isn't, who cares? Dogs always bark, but they know better than to bite!

An . . . unfortunate attitude, but their own.

"Raging Justice" was intended for consumption by the only public that counts --- the Solarian one --- to underscore that the Mandarins had been forced --- forced, I tell you! -- to take action by those wicked Manties who have attacked the economic life's blood of the Solarian People!!!

The truth is that in a lot of ways, secure code names are far less critical than they used to be. It's a lot harder to intercept interstellar communications in the Honorverse than it was to listen for radio signals in 1944 or tap the Baltic Sea cables from a nuclear sub in the 1980s, and if someone does get access to your secure comms, deceptive code names aren't likely to prevent them from figuring out what you're up to. In other words, operational security depends a lot more on keeping anyone from accessing the secure files in the first place than it does on pinning a deceptive name on an op, so operational naming conventions tend to be designed as little more than in-house shorthand to keep track of things or so they can sound suitably martial and glorious when they're finally announced. (The Manties worry less about that sort of thing than the Sollies, too. Guess they figure it's more important to get on with the job than pat yourself on the back. Go figure! )

There are clearly exceptions. For example, the Manties were always pretty darned careful about the names they assigned to anything associated with King Roger's R&D programs, and they were damned careful not to name Operation Buttercup "Operation Torrent of Really Long Range Missiles" (or even "Operation William Tell"). Still, by and large, deceptive naming is sort of the exception . . . which makes it even more effective when it is used.

The Mandarins plan on denying that Case Buccaneer ever existed. Obviously a Manty fabrication and forgery, if they ever reveal it. "They're just trying to riff off our noble, purely retaliatory and defensive Operation Buccaneer as a way to delegitimize the sort of commerce-raiding activities human beings have been using for --- why, for millennia! Look! We found this guy names Francis Drake who did exactly the same thing someplace called Cadiz back before people even had steam power! In fact, we named it in his honor!"

And you know what? A whole bunch of Sollies will probably believe them . . . as long as it presents the League as the good guys. Which, we all know, is always the case, right?

[/quote]


The RMN is actually pretty good at deceptive operational names . . . when they feel like it. Other times, they choose the name for --- dare I say it? --- PR purposes. And, of course, PR can also apply to inspiring the troops. Honor actually sorta kinda discusses this --- with Elizabeth, I think --- in the current book.

The SLN has a lot less imagination, and the League is so "All Under Heaven" in its thinking that it's way out of practice worrying about neutral opinion. In fact, there is no neutral opinion --- or not legitimate opinion anyone needs to deal with, anyway --- in the traditional Solarian view of the galaxy. Don't worry about it. We'll tell the neo-barbs (which means anyone who's not a Solly, though we're far too polite to say so to their faces) what to think, and everything will be fine. And if it isn't, who cares? Dogs always bark, but they know better than to bite!

An . . . unfortunate attitude, but their own.

"Raging Justice" was intended for consumption by the only public that counts --- the Solarian one --- to underscore that the Mandarins had been forced --- forced, I tell you! -- to take action by those wicked Manties who have attacked the economic life's blood of the Solarian People!!!

The truth is that in a lot of ways, secure code names are far less critical than they used to be. It's a lot harder to intercept interstellar communications in the Honorverse than it was to listen for radio signals in 1944 or tap the Baltic Sea cables from a nuclear sub in the 1980s, and if someone does get access to your secure comms, deceptive code names aren't likely to prevent them from figuring out what you're up to. In other words, operational security depends a lot more on keeping anyone from accessing the secure files in the first place than it does on pinning a deceptive name on an op, so operational naming conventions tend to be designed as little more than in-house shorthand to keep track of things or so they can sound suitably martial and glorious when they're finally announced. (The Manties worry less about that sort of thing than the Sollies, too. Guess they figure it's more important to get on with the job than pat yourself on the back. Go figure! )

There are clearly exceptions. For example, the Manties were always pretty darned careful about the names they assigned to anything associated with King Roger's R&D programs, and they were damned careful not to name Operation Buttercup "Operation Torrent of Really Long Range Missiles" (or even "Operation William Tell"). Still, by and large, deceptive naming is sort of the exception . . . which makes it even more effective when it is used.

The Mandarins plan on denying that Case Buccaneer ever existed. Obviously a Manty fabrication and forgery, if they ever reveal it. "They're just trying to riff off our noble, purely retaliatory and defensive Operation Buccaneer as a way to delegitimize the sort of commerce-raiding activities human beings have been using for --- why, for millennia! Look! We found this guy names Francis Drake who did exactly the same thing someplace called Cadiz back before people even had steam power! In fact, we named it in his honor!"

And you know what? A whole bunch of Sollies will probably believe them . . . as long as it presents the League as the good guys. Which, we all know, is always the case, right? [/quote]


There are always stupid people. "Raging Justice" had some public relations benefit.

Using Buccaneer makes it far more difficult to defend especially when it is used against independent systems. Drake used it against Spain which was more or less an enemy. AFter all, they were already building the Armada.

But, yes, there will be idiots. But I would guess that those who do not live on Terra will not be as amused. Many independents might decide to join the Grand Alliance to get a measure of protection.

Code names are also useful for keeping people who overhear a fragment of a conversation in an elevator or at lunch from having any idea what it is. Which does occasionally happen no matter how often people get told to not do it.

But since it is a book of fiction and not an op plan it is kind of useful to not blizzard the reader in 20 or 30 different random strings. And it also keeps the person writing the book sane.