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YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack

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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by George J. Smith   » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:20 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:As far as I can remember, the missile range from rest, if you only fire the 3 drives one after another without any ballistic phase included, is somehow around 64 million kilometers. Honor herself conceded to Tourville (in MoH, I think), that he was out of effective range of her ships in the BoMa, because he was around a 100 million kilometers away. And even for the attack against Admiral Chin in the same battle, Honor needed a ballistic segment - and Chin was no more than 72.93 million kilometers away (according to AaC, Chapter 68)

It is possible - in fact, I'm sure of that - that there were enhancements since that battle, both in drive endurance and fire control - but nonetheless, I think, that the MDM with 3 drives has no more than 80 million kilometers without a ballistic phase integrated in it. The system defense Apollo missile, with 4 drives, is yet another animal, of course.



The problem is not so much the range as the ability to control the missiles at extended ranges. IIRC there is textev to the fact that even with the 23E control missile there is a lag at extreme ranges.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by jdtinIA   » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:52 pm

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cthia wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:IMHO Technodyne does know about what is happening in the Haven sector, that is why they went into Monica in the hope they could get access to Manticoran hardware & software.

ISTR that was mentioned in one of the Shadow books as a thought by the Technodyne rep, during the discussions prior to deploying the Sollie BCs to Monica.

Of course they know now. The SLN is crying for a bigger missile envelope. However, I'm going to assume that you are pointing out that they already knew prior to the SLN's whining? Which begs the next question whether or not work had already begun and progress already made toward that endeavor.

[Question] In my review of the previous strategy of the RMN to reserve the maximum range of Apollo, does anyone know the maximum range ever displayed by the RMN and how much was held in reserve, accumulatively?* ISTR someone with half-a-brain in the League suggesting that there might indeed be more range withheld by Manty missiles.

Something else of interest is whether Technodyne will develop (1) For as much range as they can get (2) Range to equal assumed Manty range -- which may be in error or (3) Range to exceed assumed Manty range. Which may also be in error and may delay research. (4) Will we see an increase in RMN missile range with the two heads of the S&S at work at Bolthole?

Thus totally reminds me of the discussion of whether the RMN designs their tech against their own tech. Technodyne has to design against perceived Manty missile range. Which can't be easy

*As an aside. I always thought it was interesting that the RMN chose to hold out on displaying max missile range. Which dictated that Apollo could not be issued to just any old Tom, Dick or Santino. Seems knowledge of one's net worth would be inherent in that fact.

"We wouldn't trust you with tickets to the Apollo, much less trust you with Apollo missiles."

LOL Oh make it stop! LOL




It was the rebel intel officer. He pointed out that Manticore had put 2 drives in a missile when everyone else thought it couldn't be done, so why not 3 drives. It was just one line in a conversation with the other intel officer he was seducing over to the dark side. i don't remember her name but she was the one he was grooming to carry on when he got the ax for being right too many times.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:56 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:As far as I can remember, the missile range from rest, if you only fire the 3 drives one after another without any ballistic phase included, is somehow around 64 million kilometers. Honor herself conceded to Tourville (in MoH, I think), that he was out of effective range of her ships in the BoMa, because he was around a 100 million kilometers away. And even for the attack against Admiral Chin in the same battle, Honor needed a ballistic segment - and Chin was no more than 72.93 million kilometers away (according to AaC, Chapter 68)

It is possible - in fact, I'm sure of that - that there were enhancements since that battle, both in drive endurance and fire control - but nonetheless, I think, that the MDM with 3 drives has no more than 80 million kilometers without a ballistic phase integrated in it. The system defense Apollo missile, with 4 drives, is yet another animal, of course.


I appreciate the research Eagleeye. Honor used a heavy ballistic component. She didn't actually showcase the maximum non ballistic range of Apollo, it was embedded into the ballistic component.

Who actually showcased the greatest range? In case there were spies — MAlign or otherwise — amongst the flies on the bulkheads.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by feyhunde   » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:04 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:One should probably consider the strategic objective for Lacoön 2: interdict enough shipping to cause a lot of economic pain to the SL. The Yildun junction simply isn't that important.
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It's a Junction, there really aren't that many of them, and includes lines within the SL while being old and developed. And we know some of the Termini are well aligned with routes using other bridges. It's the source of SLN pods. Its has major shipyards with experienced dock workers able to build at least battlecruisers if not SDs.

Yildun should be one of the priority targets, but would likely require more force on paper than many of the others.

Considering how much MAN equipment is based on Technodyne R&D, requiring obvious transhipment orders, I'm thinking its the eventual source for the breadcrumbs that will lead to Darius.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:43 am

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The range at which Honor fired at Admiral Chin's SDPs was just under 73 million klicks, about 7 million klicks over what the peeps regarded normal range.

There is no indication that this would be maximum range for Apollo although, judging from what Honor told Tourville, 100 million klicks probably exceeded Apollo's range.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by pappilon   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:33 am

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cthia wrote:
About Technodyne, your point (2) regarding the effect of collapsing Technodyne would be a good thing, no?

However (3) has always been a source of my discomfort. Technodyne doesn't know what's going on in the Haven sector -- or rather they didn't, which begs the question of whether their design limitations aren't inherent, but rather are rooted in perception instead of conception. IOW, now that the SLN has informed them of the range of Manty missiles that they are now looking into the matter and it will only be a matter of time. Which also makes one appreciate the RMN's policy from the beginning of never unveiling Apollo's true range. As my sister is fond of saying, "There are spies amongst the flies on the wall."


(1) IFF all of Teledyne's manufacturing, R&D etc is solely located at Yildun, Taking Yildun collapses Technodyne. textev suggests such is not the case. If you seize corporate HQ you deal the corporaton a blow, but the pieces should be able to continue as long as the orders and payments come pouring in.

(2) Granted Technodyne does not know how whatever is going on is going on. However we have 2 neobarbs hurtling rocks at each other. (A) IIRC in the beginning it was Plucky Little Manticore about to be crushed by the Evil Empire of Haven. Then suddenly Manticore the-not-so-plucky-little ws handing the EE its head in every engagement.(B) EE starts cadging tech from the suppliers to the biggest baddest a-number-1 fleet in the known universe. Big cheer goes up: Now those thevin' connivin' cargo stealin' Manties will get theirs. Except ... they don't. If Technodyne does not have a clue that something is going on then (C) there is a cessation of hostilities and when it resumes EE is no longer interested in your top=of=the-line tech. yet the war goes on.

Granted the SLN is clueless, who cares about two neobarbs throwing rocks at each other? Technodyne knows what is going on, it is probably not ignoring all those observers, they did develop pods for system defense after all. Even Haven and her tech witchiness have trouble reverse engineering Manty tech. they figure out what but do their own thing about how.

Yes the supplier of munitions et al to the biggest baddest fleet in the universe is a little myopic, the SLN has no real interest in weapons development besides tweaks in electronics, materials, etc. Technodyne has no monetary interest in developing new and exotic weapons systems that the only conceivable purchaser does not want. Without the fear of being engulfed by ... anyone, there is no perceived need for spending relatively scarce money on spurious R&D programs.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:25 am

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pappilon wrote:(1) IFF all of Teledyne's manufacturing, R&D etc is solely located at Yildun, Taking Yildun collapses Technodyne. textev suggests such is not the case. If you seize corporate HQ you deal the corporaton a blow, but the pieces should be able to continue as long as the orders and payments come pouring in.


Word of Weber (tm) (aka Runsforcelery in this forum) is that Yildun is a major shipyard for Technodyne, but NOT their only location or shipyard/factory. It is perhaps the most morally difficult portion of Technodyne because there is no habitable planet and factory and families are intermixed in the space stations.

pappilon wrote:Yes the supplier of munitions et al to the biggest baddest fleet in the universe is a little myopic, the SLN has no real interest in weapons development besides tweaks in electronics, materials, etc.


Technodyne is A supplier of munitions et al. They are NOT the sole source for the SLN nor are they the only arms merchants to ignore the arms embargo on the Haven Sector.

pappilon wrote:Technodyne has no monetary interest in developing new and exotic weapons systems that the only conceivable purchaser does not want. Without the fear of being engulfed by ... anyone, there is no perceived need for spending relatively scarce money on spurious R&D programs.


Also from RFC's posts recently, Technodyne supplies arms to many small clients as well as to the SLN. (Sometimes even legally.) They couldn't survive as a transstellar corporation with just the SLN as a customer.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:55 am

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range for mdms was something i recall mike henke thinking about when she blew byrng into little pieces. can't remember the numbers involved beyond that she held fire so that only 2 drives were needed
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by Hans   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:06 am

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Hello,

YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack

Why crack it? There is no need to.
Just blockade it. Like in our history. More fortresses where taken because of hunger than by storming them.
Hyper in with enough force to secure the termini on both sides and don't let any ship in or out. Then just go after the ships.
If they are producing - who cares if the don't get that produced stuff out to the SLN?
Btw. The system defense pods are moving out of position, because of astro mechanics and they need to be adjusted once in a while (even at our Lagrange points the satellites there need correction). That means the pods need maintainence. And how is this done? By ships!
This is more time consuming but after the initial attack, there are just a few battlecruisers (with pods) and LACs necessary to block anything.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:44 am

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Hans wrote:Hello,

YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack

Why crack it? There is no need to.
Just blockade it. Like in our history. More fortresses where taken because of hunger than by storming them.
Hyper in with enough force to secure the termini on both sides and don't let any ship in or out. Then just go after the ships.
If they are producing - who cares if the don't get that produced stuff out to the SLN?
Btw. The system defense pods are moving out of position, because of astro mechanics and they need to be adjusted once in a while (even at our Lagrange points the satellites there need correction). That means the pods need maintainence. And how is this done? By ships!
This is more time consuming but after the initial attack, there are just a few battlecruisers (with pods) and LACs necessary to block anything.


Ummm. This isn't Star Fire. Despite the inconvenience, the defenders can still just hyper out of the system...
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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