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YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack

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YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:15 pm

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This presents the perfect opportunity for me to enquire about something that I've wondered about for quite some time. Do forgive the sophomoric question.

I understand RFC's reluctance to get into the logistics of attacking Yildun just yet. But about those pesky system defense pods. Am I in error that RMN tech can deal with the issue?

Pod Warfare

I always wondered why there aren't special ships built to destroy pods. There are mine layers. Why aren't there mine destroyers? I recall in one of the books that a serious dent was put in the field of mines in one system on one occasion. Isn't Mistletoe an armed, stealthed drone that was used to destroy Moriarty platforms? Why can it not be adapted to destroy pods? Can a nuclear capable version be produced? Would a nuclear version be more effective in the midst of pods? Is the expense of such a strategy cost prohibitive?

Is it absolutely necessary to relocate the millions of civvies? Aren't the orbitals self sufficient?

If the pods can be destroyed. Then why wouldn't that be game over? Solarian warships are ineffective. Once the pods are toasted and the ships are roasted then the orbitals are under RMN control. No? Everything of concern is contained in the orbitals. Easy peasy to separate the military platforms from the civvies then. It seems Yildun would be an easier target, not a harder one. I know that it isn't, because himself says it isn't. I just don't understand why. And why would there be a need to transport the millions of civilians? Simply destroy the pods from long distance, kill the ships and the orbitals are controlled.

Ok, what am I missing? Ships hiding or holding out amongst the orbitals, preventing engagement?





The particularly thorny moral and political problem that RFC talks about reminded me of an article I read quite some time ago. Took me a while to fish it out. Solely, FYI...

March 14, 2011

Ethics and War: When combatants hide among civilians

—Christina Farr

One critical element of the laws of war is a concept known as "belligerent privilege," which stipulates that combatants may legally kill other combatants but may not target civilians. What, then, does a soldier do about the fact that in modern warfare it can be extraordinarily difficult to tell the difference?

Terrorists often choose to move undetected through the ranks of civilian populations. They hide in plain sight by wearing civilian clothes rather than uniforms or distinctive emblems. "They may be farmers by day and fighters by night," said David Luban, a Georgetown professor of law and philosophy, at an event that was part of the Ethics and War series. What's more, civilians may offer food and shelter to enemy soldiers - do they in the process become combatants? And what, finally, should the soldier do about civilians who are being used as a shield to protect combatants?

These are tricky questions. Luban said the phrasing of the Geneva Convention leaves open the possibility that soldiers may legally target civilians in a conflict zone. Article 48 says the military must discriminate between civilians and combatants at all times. Yet Article 51 notes that civilians shall only enjoy full protection in times of conflict "unless and for such times as they take a direct part in hostilities."

Efforts to clarify these issues have proved to be "highly dangerous," said Luban. In 2009, the Obama administration made a change in the Military Commissions Act to label anyone who materially supports hostilities against the U.S. as an "unprivileged enemy belligerent." As a result, civilians who tacitly support an enemy regime or terrorist organization may be lawfully targeted. Unfortunately, the amendment drew no distinction between those who did so voluntarily and those who did so involuntarily. It other words, a civilian actively helping a terrorist might be construed to be a combatant. But less clear, said Luban, is how the U.S. government would consider an Afghan woman who under duress shelters members of the Taliban.

The lack of consensus, he said, has led to widespread confusion within the military. One soldier told Luban that he didn't "think anyone has worked out what to do when civilians take on certain risks by assisting the enemy," or what to do when "soldiers and civilians are indistinguishable."

It is equally difficult to know how far the military is obligated to go to protect innocent civilians. It is often left to the discretion of an individual solider or unit to make that call, and often in a split second. Luban cited one well-known example in which one British soldier, Frank Richards, was ordered to throw bombs into cellars to target German soldiers during the First World War. When Richards chose to issue a warning cry to alert civilians in hiding, he lost a key advantage over his enemy.

The attitude toward civilians is very different today, Luban said. The unspoken sentiment among soldiers is that "we'll not lose another life for these people." But they are wrong to think this way. Luban cited recent studies that indicate it is in the best interests of soldiers to protect the innocent. Brigades that actively try to prevent civilian casualties tend to take the fewest casualties in their own ranks. "If you're careless in protecting civilians," he argued, "you're careless in everything."

The key, Luban said, is establishing clear boundaries. Wars are inevitable, and no matter how compelling the moral arguments, he argued, "the states that ratify treaties like the Geneva Convention will never accept rules that ruin their own military effectiveness." However, the issues surrounding civilians in war zones must be addressed to ensure that soldiers are not left with a dangerous incoherence. Ultimately, he said, "we need analytic clarity."

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by TangoLima   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:43 pm

TangoLima
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You should quote the rest of RFC's posts.
Rspecially about the lack of habitable planets and the
interlocking housing and factory complexes.

Additionally the wide dispersion of Technodyne's assets
throughout the league. Thus making Yildin a lesser
priority.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:26 pm

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One should probably consider the strategic objective for Lacoön 2: interdict enough shipping to cause a lot of economic pain to the SL. The Yildun junction simply isn't that important.

The comparison with minesweepers fails on one major point: mines tend to be placed at bottlenecks that ships pretty much have to transit to get into or out of a harbor or through a strait or similar navigational feature.

Shoals of system defense pods can be placed pretty much anywhere, making them difficult to locate. Once located, of course, they can be knocked out with regular warheads. This is why pods tractored to a ship's hull are in a "use it or lose it" situation once the fight starts.

Assuming TIY's system defense pods have the same endurance as Manticore's, then the easiest way to find them is to simply park a few destroyers in stealth around the system and watch for Technodyne's maintenance forces. That'll only take three months or so.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by kzt   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:01 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:One should probably consider the strategic objective for Lacoön 2: interdict enough shipping to cause a lot of economic pain to the SL. The Yildun junction simply isn't that important.

The comparison with minesweepers fails on one major point: mines tend to be placed at bottlenecks that ships pretty much have to transit to get into or out of a harbor or through a strait or similar navigational feature.

Shoals of system defense pods can be placed pretty much anywhere, making them difficult to locate. Once located, of course, they can be knocked out with regular warheads. This is why pods tractored to a ship's hull are in a "use it or lose it" situation once the fight starts.

Assuming TIY's system defense pods have the same endurance as Manticore's, then the easiest way to find them is to simply park a few destroyers in stealth around the system and watch for Technodyne's maintenance forces. That'll only take three months or so.

Assuming they don’t spot you coming in, with the extensive senor arrays I’d expect at a major military node. If I was an active MA agent with communications to the mother ship I’d drop a couple of sharks on top of you. They can probably learn a lot from the wreckage if they can’t manage to whack the whole crew with something clever. Like say a bunch of defocused grasers, since really stealthy ships don’t have wedges up.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by TangoLima   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:04 pm

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JR good points.
Anyone know where the other end to the Yildin
whormhole bridge comes out ?
Interdicting the far end may be far more cost effective.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:55 pm

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kzt wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:One should probably consider the strategic objective for Lacoön 2: interdict enough shipping to cause a lot of economic pain to the SL. The Yildun junction simply isn't that important.

The comparison with minesweepers fails on one major point: mines tend to be placed at bottlenecks that ships pretty much have to transit to get into or out of a harbor or through a strait or similar navigational feature.

Shoals of system defense pods can be placed pretty much anywhere, making them difficult to locate. Once located, of course, they can be knocked out with regular warheads. This is why pods tractored to a ship's hull are in a "use it or lose it" situation once the fight starts.

Assuming TIY's system defense pods have the same endurance as Manticore's, then the easiest way to find them is to simply park a few destroyers in stealth around the system and watch for Technodyne's maintenance forces. That'll only take three months or so.

Assuming they don’t spot you coming in, with the extensive senor arrays I’d expect at a major military node. If I was an active MA agent with communications to the mother ship I’d drop a couple of sharks on top of you. They can probably learn a lot from the wreckage if they can’t manage to whack the whole crew with something clever. Like say a bunch of defocused grasers, since really stealthy ships don’t have wedges up.


There's no textev that Yildun is a member of the MAlign, or that the MAN has assets in the system.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by kzt   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:19 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:There's no textev that Yildun is a member of the MAlign, or that the MAN has assets in the system.

I’m totally sure there are absolutely no MAN representatives, under cover or not, working at their main r&d facility.

Remember where we first ran into the Cataphract missile? The OB strike, in the pods the sharks dropped.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:41 pm

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TangoLima wrote:JR good points.
Anyone know where the other end to the Yildin
whormhole bridge comes out ?
Interdicting the far end may be far more cost effective.


Yildun is a junction with three remote termini, not a simple bridge.

The longest goes 135 ly to Templar, which is 69.5 ly from Sol.

The second is at Mascot, which is 42 ly from Olivia. Olivia, in turn, is one end of a bridge to Syou-Tang. Olivia is also 480 ly from Hainuwele. Syou-Tang is probably fairly close to Mesa. (See ART, Chapter 4, p.49). It does not, however, appear on the Illegible Map, so it's not that close. At a guess, it's far enough south of Mesa to not be on the map. Hainuwele is fairly close to Erewhon, but I don't have the actual distance, and it's not on any map I've got.

The third goes to Dickerson. I have no idea where Dickerson is at.

Putting this all together, Yildun is probably south-east of Sol, and possibly a bit farther out than Joshua. That's a wild guess at this point, though.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:44 pm

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kzt wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:There's no textev that Yildun is a member of the MAlign, or that the MAN has assets in the system.

I’m totally sure there are absolutely no MAN representatives, under cover or not, working at their main r&d facility.

Remember where we first ran into the Cataphract missile? The OB strike, in the pods the sharks dropped.


Oh, the MAlign almost certainly has people in the system. It's the MAN (Mesan Alignment Navy) that I doubt has anything there.
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Re: YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack
Post by Eagleeye   » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:19 am

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kzt wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:There's no textev that Yildun is a member of the MAlign, or that the MAN has assets in the system.

I’m totally sure there are absolutely no MAN representatives, under cover or not, working at their main r&d facility.

Remember where we first ran into the Cataphract missile? The OB strike, in the pods the sharks dropped.


Wrong. The first time cataphracts were used was at Torch, during the battle between Rozsaks SLN-units and the ex-havenite Peoples Navy in Exile.

Concerning your other point, I am sure that there are MAlign representatives at Yildun; maybe even some members of the MAN, but under cover. After all, TIY had to get a reason to develop the cataphract. An order by the MAN could be such a reason, don't you think? Such an order would not be given as MAN, that's for sure, but who says it has to? Part of the MAN is, for example, the Mannerheim System Defense Force, and I bet my 2 cents, that there were observers of them in Manticore and/or Haven during the war.

Hell, I think I remember a scene in Shadow of Saganami, where a Monican Admiral and the TIY-representative in Monica talked about the fact, that - after the change of management in Haven to the Pritchard administration - they don't get examples of manticoran tech anymore. That means, that TIY itself had its own people at least in New Paris during the war, and your guess is as good as mine how big a percentage of these people actually worked for the Mesan Alignment, too. So, TIY may've started the development of the Cataphract for itself - simply to have such a missile available, should some interested party came calling ...

I see no other way for the cataphracts to be ready for use during the Battle of Torch.
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