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Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow

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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by roseandheather   » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:16 pm

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isaac_newton wrote:
Does anyone remember where this comes from? I only have dead tree sources to go from.

I'd really like to see the exact words - as we have so often seen with RFC - these can make all the difference in the world to the correct interpretation!!!


I honestly don't remember. And I have to confess that part of it could be my own brain extrapolating from actual material - such as Eloise somewhat humorously pointing out the situation that multi-generation deep cover agents must experience - "Honey, we're part of a centuries-long conspiracy to take over the known galaxy." If it isn't outright stated in-text, though, it was at least heavily implied that MA genetic lines had been lost, cut adrift, or similar over the years. Perhaps RFC would be willing to shed some light?
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:22 pm

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roseandheather wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
Does anyone remember where this comes from? I only have dead tree sources to go from.

I'd really like to see the exact words - as we have so often seen with RFC - these can make all the difference in the world to the correct interpretation!!!


I honestly don't remember. And I have to confess that part of it could be my own brain extrapolating from actual material - such as Eloise somewhat humorously pointing out the situation that multi-generation deep cover agents must experience - "Honey, we're part of a centuries-long conspiracy to take over the known galaxy." If it isn't outright stated in-text, though, it was at least heavily implied that MA genetic lines had been lost, cut adrift, or similar over the years. Perhaps RFC would be willing to shed some light?


Here it is:

on 2011-06-17 RFC wrote:The other thing I’ll say is that the Alignment has lost a LOT of its “sleeper” lines over the centuries. It always assumed that it would lose quite a few of them and based its plans on letting a line go (and having redundant backups in place) rather than risking exposure by trying to “salvage” or hang onto one when there was no suitable generational candidate or there was a communications failure.They have also resorted to assassination in more than one instance to tie off potential loose ends. In the case of the Renaissance Factor’s leadership cadres, the “sleepers” are not individual family lines but of groups of allied families, and “the onion” is replicated within those families. These planets have been settled for far shorter periods than most League systems, their elites were infiltrated by the Alignment early on, and clandestine Mesan support (economic, political, and lethal [where serious obstacles can be removed by a discreet assassination or two]) to help them along has been a major factor in how they have become and remained as locally powerful as they are. But it wasn’t until the current generation that any members of those families were let into the full strategy, and even then that knowledge was limited to very carefully selected, screened, and groomed individuals. The same thing holds true within the ranks of the militaries of the RF’s member star nations, and, in fact, MA influence within the military is largely restricted to a single one of the RF’s navies (which one is left to the reader, based on textev already presented <G>), which is the main reason Darius was necessary in the first place.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:06 pm

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Posts: 2425
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runsforcelery wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
I wonder if it may partially feel that way because they are not obviously as frothingly mad wild eye evil as - say Citizen Ransom or some of those people on Grayson & Masada, or a sociopath like Oscar St Just, or even deeply, deeply corrupt like Young or High Ridge - and are - in once sense actually trying to build something?



In some ways, that's how they are supposed to come across. I think iwhat you're seeing is some of the banality of evil peeking through, because that's exactly how they see themselves. Of course, so did Rob and Oscar, but I think I took you more fully inside their heads in some ways than I've done with the Alignment. The thing about the Alignment is that both they and the Mandarins represent one of the things I find most dangerous in all the world: people in positions of vast power who never even question the total, complete, and exclusive validity and rectitude of their belief system. . . especially if it just happens to validate their right to power and feed their own rapaciousness. People in those positions come in two really deadly varieties. (1) The scumbag: the system I embrace absolves me of my responsibilities in time of peace and I will embrace any means to protect it (and, of course, me) when it comes under threat. (2) The true believer: the sheer sancity off the system I embrace automatically validates anything I do in its support. (And, of course, it that allows me to remain in power as the vanguard of the proliferate or whatever, that's merely evidence of the wise judgement of a benign providence.) Hard to exaggerate the damage either of them can do, but the really scary thing is that if you really get inside their heads, everything they do makes sense from their POV.



Actually. now that I think about it, I suspect there's another reason.

I think — hope, really — that to some extent, on a certain level, the reader can actually identify with the avowed purposes of the Detweiler Plan. And I also hope that the reader recognizes the fundamental humanity of the people capable of pursuing such an inhuman strategy.


What the Mesan Alignment was originally founded to accomplish is A Good Thing™ in a lot of ways, and the reader is inside the current crop of Detweilers' heads. He can see that their commitment is genuine and that, in many ways, they aren't monsters — at least in their own eyes, or where the people they actually know are concerned — at all.

In addition, since he doesn't live in the Honorverse, he's able to look at the situation without all those centuries of gradually weakening prejudice against the notion of any designed program of genetic uplift as the first slippery slope on the road back to the super soldiers and the warfare between them and the "normals" which almost destroyed the birth world of the human race. (I think it would be very difficult to exaggerate the scar that the Final War left on the collective human psyche in the Honorverse. Maybe I need to go back and do a short story set during the rescue mission to Old Earth from Beowulf. That war came within an eyelash of literally rendering Old Earth uninhabitable, and a huge part of what started and drove it to such lengths was the resentment of the genetic construct "super soldiers" who saw all the rest of humanity as at best cattle and at worst their mortal enemies. So there's a reason for that lingering fear, that residual prejudice, against any effort to systematically "upgrade" the human race.)

The reader doesn't see that, though. Or not to the same extent that people living in-universe do. And because of that, the reader is in a much better place when it comes to impartially evaluating whether or not what Leonard Detweiler originally wanted to accomplish was a good thing. The benefits are so stunningly obvious to him, that it's hard for some of that "But what they want to accomplish should to be a no-brainer" not to leak over into their perception of the Detweilers and the other members of the Onion. These are people whose professed purpose is to make things better at the end of the day. And in its case "better" doesn't just mean a more comfortable income, a nicer car, or even guaranteed healthcare. It means, literally, centuries more of life, greater resistance to disease, enhanced senses, bodies that are faster, stronger, and tougher than any human has ever been. That's what the Alignment tells itself — and believes — that it is trying to accomplish, and so, in its own eyes, it's a Force for Good™.

That was true of Rob Pierre, also, of course. Yes, he was a member of the corrupt power elite before his revolution, and, yes, he murdered — or had murdered — hundreds of thousands, probably even millions, of Legislaturalists and their families. And, yes, he pursued the war against Manticore when he "didn't have to." His problem was that he thought he did have to because without that focus, he would have lost control of his own revolution and Bad Things™ would have happened. The problem was that he wound up contributing to much larger Bad Things™ for the galaxy at large.

The reader, though, watched Pierre make one bargain after another with the devil and saw the consequences very clearly, not just from Manticore's side but from the side of people like Thomas Theisman, Warner Caslet, Shannon Foraker, and dozens of other Havenites. As such, it was easy to lose track of his "good intentions" and to remember which road is paved with them.

But another big difference between him and his allies and the Alignment (and I've done this deliberately) is that you never saw his or Oscar Saint-Just's home lives. You knew Pierre's son — briefly — and, unless you were pretty strange, you weren't exactly blown away by the Mother Theresa side of his personality. You never saw Saint-Just's family. And so you had these two guys who, whatever their motives, were wreaking enormous damage on billions of lives without anything to set them into a more humanist/humanized context.

With the Alignment, I've been careful to show you just that. You've seen Albrecht and his wife, including their last moments of life on Mesa. You've seen Albrecht interacting with his sons. In the upcoming book, you'll see more of that. And because of that, I've shown them to you through the eyes of a sympathetic situation. You're supposed to recognize that they are good parents, loving sons, good uncles to each other's children . . . who just happen to have sold their souls to further a fundamentally flawed — and almost certainly unnecessary — conspiracy that is going to kill billions even if it succeeds perfectly.

They fall into my second category above. They are true-believers, raised to be true-believers, and with nothing in their immediate orbit to bring them face-to-face with reality. Jack McBryde's critical flaw (from the Alignment's perspective) was a powerful sense of empathy. Herlander Simões and his desperate love for his culled foster daughter broke through to him on a personal level. And then, far worse, he extended from the individual to the general. He realized how many other Fredericas there'd already been, how many more there would be, and how much more terrible the casualty count was going to be when the plan was fully executed. I think it's highly probable that he would have suicided anyway if Victor and Anton hadn't offered him — and Herlander — a way out.

The Detweiler boys have a sense of empathy, but they apply it only to those within the group they recognize as being "on the right side of history." After so many centuries of the Detweiler Plan, they have completely dehumanized their adversaries . . . which, after all, is one of the things that the Beowulf Code feared might happen if someone started designing "super humans" who would find themselves the lions in a herd of antelope.

But for the reader to fully understand just how horrific their commitment to the Detweiler's Plan's objectives regardless of the cost truly is, I can't dehumanize them for him. Instead, I have to do the reverse.

Frankly, that may be one reason they strike some people as "a dud." It's not just that they don't display all sorts of superhuman abilities. They don't display any sense of themselves as an Evil Conspiracy™ at war with all the rest of the galaxy. They see themselves as the Forces of Good™ at war with the evil of the rest of the galaxy's blindness where the righteousness of their cause is concerned. And like political extremists everywhere, they're perfectly comfortable with the theory that "a few must be sacrificed for the good of the many." So let's shoot all the bourgeoisie and get started.

Edited because I accidentally hit the "submit" button instead of the "preview" button.

To quote Shannon Foraker, "Oops."


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:36 am

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Posts: 1182
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
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runsforcelery wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
I wonder if it may partially feel that way because they are not obviously as frothingly mad wild eye evil as - say Citizen Ransom or some of those people on Grayson & Masada, or a sociopath like Oscar St Just, or even deeply, deeply corrupt like Young or High Ridge - and are - in once sense actually trying to build something?



In some ways, that's how they are supposed to come across. I think iwhat you're seeing is some of the banality of evil peeking through, because that's exactly how they see themselves. Of course, so did Rob and Oscar, but I think I took you more fully inside their heads in some ways than I've done with the Alignment. The thing about the Alignment is that both they and the Mandarins represent one of the things I find most dangerous in all the world: people in positions of vast power who never even question the total, complete, and exclusive validity and rectitude of their belief system. . . especially if it just happens to validate their right to power and feed their own rapaciousness. People in those positions come in two really deadly varieties. (1) The scumbag: the system I embrace absolves me of my responsibilities in time of peace and I will embrace any means to protect it (and, of course, me) when it comes under threat. (2) The true believer: the sheer sancity off the system I embrace automatically validates anything I do in its support. (And, of course, it that allows me to remain in power as the vanguard of the proliferate or whatever, that's merely evidence of the wise judgement of a benign providence.) Hard to exaggerate the damage either of them can do, but the really scary thing is that if you really get inside their heads, everything they do makes sense from their POV......

SNIP

Edited because I accidentally hit the "submit" button instead of the "preview" button.

To quote Shannon Foraker, "Oops."



Hi RFC

I really appreciate such a thorough answer to an almost throwaway comment :-)

It makes the whole 'second half' of the series that much more poignant.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:41 am

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Rear Admiral

Posts: 1182
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
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JohnRoth wrote:
roseandheather wrote:SNIP

I honestly don't remember. And I have to confess that part of it could be my own brain extrapolating from actual material - such as Eloise somewhat humorously pointing out the situation that multi-generation deep cover agents must experience - "Honey, we're part of a centuries-long conspiracy to take over the known galaxy." If it isn't outright stated in-text, though, it was at least heavily implied that MA genetic lines had been lost, cut adrift, or similar over the years. Perhaps RFC would be willing to shed some light?


Here it is:

on 2011-06-17 RFC wrote:The other thing I’ll say is that the Alignment has lost a LOT of its “sleeper” lines over the centuries. It always assumed that it would lose quite a few of them and based its plans on letting a line go (and having redundant backups in place) rather than risking exposure by trying to “salvage” or hang onto one when there was no suitable generational candidate or there was a communications failure.They have also resorted to assassination in more than one instance to tie off potential loose ends. In the case of the Renaissance Factor’s leadership cadres, the “sleepers” are not individual family lines but of groups of allied families, and “the onion” is replicated within those families. These planets have been settled for far shorter periods than most League systems, their elites were infiltrated by the Alignment early on, and clandestine Mesan support (economic, political, and lethal [where serious obstacles can be removed by a discreet assassination or two]) to help them along has been a major factor in how they have become and remained as locally powerful as they are. But it wasn’t until the current generation that any members of those families were let into the full strategy, and even then that knowledge was limited to very carefully selected, screened, and groomed individuals. The same thing holds true within the ranks of the militaries of the RF’s member star nations, and, in fact, MA influence within the military is largely restricted to a single one of the RF’s navies (which one is left to the reader, based on textev already presented <G>), which is the main reason Darius was necessary in the first place.


Thanks John - thats both helpful and illuminating, especially in the light of what RFC has been 'dribling' onto us over the last few days/weeks

I thought I didn't see that in the books themselves.

So Rose - you were entirely correct :-)
well remembered!
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by roseandheather   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:52 am

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm
Location: Republic of Haven

isaac_newton wrote:
Thanks John - thats both helpful and illuminating, especially in the light of what RFC has been 'dribling' onto us over the last few days/weeks

I thought I didn't see that in the books themselves.

So Rose - you were entirely correct :-)
well remembered!


See? I told you I'd read it somewhere!! :mrgreen:

(Let's just leave out the part where it wasn't actually in the books themselves, okay? I still have ADHD you know! :lol: )
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:47 am

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Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
I wonder if it may partially feel that way because they are not obviously as frothingly mad wild eye evil as - say Citizen Ransom or some of those people on Grayson & Masada, or a sociopath like Oscar St Just, or even deeply, deeply corrupt like Young or High Ridge - and are - in once sense actually trying to build something?



In some ways, that's how they are supposed to come across. I think iwhat you're seeing is some of the banality of evil peeking through, because that's exactly how they see themselves. Of course, so did Rob and Oscar, but I think I took you more fully inside their heads in some ways than I've done with the Alignment. The thing about the Alignment is that both they and the Mandarins represent one of the things I find most dangerous in all the world: people in positions of vast power who never even question the total, complete, and exclusive validity and rectitude of their belief system. . . especially if it just happens to validate their right to power and feed their own rapaciousness. People in those positions come in two really deadly varieties. (1) The scumbag: the system I embrace absolves me of my responsibilities in time of peace and I will embrace any means to protect it (and, of course, me) when it comes under threat. (2) The true believer: the sheer sancity off the system I embrace automatically validates anything I do in its support. (And, of course, it that allows me to remain in power as the vanguard of the proliferate or whatever, that's merely evidence of the wise judgement of a benign providence.) Hard to exaggerate the damage either of them can do, but the really scary thing is that if you really get inside their heads, everything they do makes sense from their POV.[/q


Actually. now that I think about it, I suspect there's another reason.

I think — hope, really — that to some extent, on a certain level, the reader can actually identify with the avowed purposes of the Detweiler Plan. And I also hope that the reader recognizes the fundamental humanity of the people capable of pursuing such an inhuman strategy.


What the Mesan Alignment was originally founded to accomplish is A Good Thing™ in a lot of ways, and the reader is inside the current crop of Detweilers' heads. He can see that their commitment is genuine and that, in many ways, they aren't monsters — at least in their own eyes, or where the people they actually know are concerned — at all.

In addition, since he doesn't live in the Honorverse, he's able to look at the situation without all those centuries of gradually weakening prejudice against the notion of any designed program of genetic uplift as the first slippery slope on the road back to the super soldiers and the warfare between them and the "normals" which almost destroyed the birth world of the human race. (I think it would be very difficult to exaggerate the scar that the Final War left on the collective human psyche in the Honorverse. Maybe I need to go back and do a short story set during the rescue mission to Old Earth from Beowulf. That war came within an eyelash of literally rendering Old Earth uninhabitable, and a huge part of what started and drove it to such lengths was the resentment of the genetic construct "super soldiers" who saw all the rest of humanity as at best cattle and at worst their mortal enemies. So there's a reason for that lingering fear, that residual prejudice, against any effort to systematically "upgrade" the human race.)

The reader doesn't see that, though. Or not to the same extent that people living in-universe do. And because of that, the reader is in a much better place when it comes to impartially evaluating whether or not what Leonard Detweiler originally wanted to accomplish was a good thing. The benefits are so stunningly obvious to him, that it's hard for some of that "But what they want to accomplish should to be a no-brainer" not to leak over into their perception of the Detweilers and the other members of the Onion. These are people whose professed purpose is to make things better at the end of the day. And in its case "better" doesn't just mean a more comfortable income, a nicer car, or even guaranteed healthcare. It means, literally, centuries more of life, greater resistance to disease, enhanced senses, bodies that are faster, stronger, and tougher than any human has ever been. That's what the Alignment tells itself — and believes — that it is trying to accomplish, and so, in its own eyes, it's a Force for Good™.

That was true of Rob Pierre, also, of course. Yes, he was a member of the corrupt power elite before his revolution, and, yes, he murdered — or had murdered — hundreds of thousands, probably even millions, of Legislaturalists and their families. And, yes, he pursued the war against Manticore when he "didn't have to." His problem was that he thought he did have to because without that focus, he would have lost control of his own revolution and Bad Things™ would have happened. The problem was that he wound up contributing to much larger Bad Things™ for the galaxy at large.

The reader, though, watched Pierre make one bargain after another with the devil and saw the consequences very clearly, not just from Manticore's side but from the side of people like Thomas Theisman, Warner Caslet, Shannon Foraker, and dozens of other Havenites. As such, it was easy to lose track of his "good intentions" and to remember which road is paved with them.

But another big difference between him and his allies and the Alignment (and I've done this deliberately) is that you never saw his or Oscar Saint-Just's home lives. You knew Pierre's son — briefly — and, unless you were pretty strange, you weren't exactly blown away by the Mother Theresa side of his personality. You never saw Saint-Just's family. And so you had these two guys who, whatever their motives, were wreaking enormous damage on billions of lives without anything to set them into a more humanist/humanized context.

With the Alignment, I've been careful to show you just that. You've seen Albrecht and his wife, including their last moments of life on Mesa. You've seen Albrecht interacting with his sons. In the upcoming book, you'll see more of that. And because of that, I've shown them to you through the eyes of a sympathetic situation. You're supposed to recognize that they are good parents, loving sons, good uncles to each other's children . . . who just happen to have sold their souls to further a fundamentally flawed — and almost certainly unnecessary — conspiracy that is going to kill billions even if it succeeds perfectly.

They fall into my second category above. They are true-believers, raised to be true-believers, and with nothing in their immediate orbit to bring them face-to-face with reality. Jack McBryde's critical flaw (from the Alignment's perspective) was a powerful sense of empathy. Herlander Simões and his desperate love for his culled foster daughter broke through to him on a personal level. And then, far worse, he extended from the individual to the general. He realized how many other Fredericas there'd already been, how many more there would be, and how much more terrible the casualty count was going to be when the plan was fully executed. I think it's highly probable that he would have suicided anyway if Victor and Anton hadn't offered him — and Herlander — a way out.

The Detweiler boys have a sense of empathy, but they apply it only to those within the group they recognize as being "on the right side of history." After so many centuries of the Detweiler Plan, they have completely dehumanized their adversaries . . . which, after all, is one of the things that the Beowulf Code feared might happen if someone started designing "super humans" who would find themselves the lions in a herd of antelope.

But for the reader to fully understand just how horrific their commitment to the Detweiler's Plan's objectives regardless of the cost truly is, I can't dehumanize them for him. Instead, I have to do the reverse.

Frankly, that may be one reason they strike some people as "a dud." It's not just that they don't display all sorts of superhuman abilities. They don't display any sense of themselves as an Evil Conspiracy™ at war with all the rest of the galaxy. They see themselves as the Forces of Good™ at war with the evil of the rest of the galaxy's blindness where the righteousness of their cause is concerned. And like political extremists everywhere, they're perfectly comfortable with the theory that "a few must be sacrificed for the good of the many." So let's shoot all the bourgeoisie and get started.

Edited because I accidentally hit the "submit" button instead of the "preview" button.

To quote Shannon Foraker, "Oops."



I think part of the problem is that overall gestalt over the idea has won out over the methods. "The ends justify the means" kind of thing. We have seen that with communism. Eventually things will be wonderful but we have to destroy all those baddies who are in the way. And there have been hundreds of millions of those.

In some countries, infants with brain disease are culled. It is done in the name of "making life easier for the parents," even for those who want the babies.

Here, it seems obvious to the Detweilers. Make the human race better. And the culling process when applied directly seems minor. We have only seen one real example and it came across as something viewed as a tragedy by all concerned. The doctors telling Herlander that his daughter must die are emotional descendants of the ones pushing abortions for Downs syndrome embryos.

The real problem is the group's desire to really push the changes on people. Most of us would like our kids to be smarter, stronger, healthier, even prettier than ourselves. Sometimes the velvet glove works better without an iron fist in it.

Remember that some of the mods done outside the MAlign group are not all that different from what the group is doing. Spending a few generations quietly improving your followers on a planet and letting them change the argument would work better than their methods.

But that has been their choice.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:17 am

PeterZ
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Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

ldwechsler wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

In some ways, that's how they are supposed to come across. I think iwhat you're seeing is some of the banality of evil peeking through, because that's exactly how they see themselves. Of course, so did Rob and Oscar, but I think I took you more fully inside their heads in some ways than I've done with the Alignment. The thing about the Alignment is that both they and the Mandarins represent one of the things I find most dangerous in all the world: people in positions of vast power who never even question the total, complete, and exclusive validity and rectitude of their belief system. . . especially if it just happens to validate their right to power and feed their own rapaciousness. People in those positions come in two really deadly varieties. (1) The scumbag: the system I embrace absolves me of my responsibilities in time of peace and I will embrace any means to protect it (and, of course, me) when it comes under threat. (2) The true believer: the sheer sancity off the system I embrace automatically validates anything I do in its support. (And, of course, it that allows me to remain in power as the vanguard of the proliferate or whatever, that's merely evidence of the wise judgement of a benign providence.) Hard to exaggerate the damage either of them can do, but the really scary thing is that if you really get inside their heads, everything they do makes sense from their POV.[/q


Actually. now that I think about it, I suspect there's another reason.

I think — hope, really — that to some extent, on a certain level, the reader can actually identify with the avowed purposes of the Detweiler Plan. And I also hope that the reader recognizes the fundamental humanity of the people capable of pursuing such an inhuman strategy.


What the Mesan Alignment was originally founded to accomplish is A Good Thing™ in a lot of ways, and the reader is inside the current crop of Detweilers' heads. He can see that their commitment is genuine and that, in many ways, they aren't monsters — at least in their own eyes, or where the people they actually know are concerned — at all.

In addition, since he doesn't live in the Honorverse, he's able to look at the situation without all those centuries of gradually weakening prejudice against the notion of any designed program of genetic uplift as the first slippery slope on the road back to the super soldiers and the warfare between them and the "normals" which almost destroyed the birth world of the human race. (I think it would be very difficult to exaggerate the scar that the Final War left on the collective human psyche in the Honorverse. Maybe I need to go back and do a short story set during the rescue mission to Old Earth from Beowulf. That war came within an eyelash of literally rendering Old Earth uninhabitable, and a huge part of what started and drove it to such lengths was the resentment of the genetic construct "super soldiers" who saw all the rest of humanity as at best cattle and at worst their mortal enemies. So there's a reason for that lingering fear, that residual prejudice, against any effort to systematically "upgrade" the human race.)

The reader doesn't see that, though. Or not to the same extent that people living in-universe do. And because of that, the reader is in a much better place when it comes to impartially evaluating whether or not what Leonard Detweiler originally wanted to accomplish was a good thing. The benefits are so stunningly obvious to him, that it's hard for some of that "But what they want to accomplish should to be a no-brainer" not to leak over into their perception of the Detweilers and the other members of the Onion. These are people whose professed purpose is to make things better at the end of the day. And in its case "better" doesn't just mean a more comfortable income, a nicer car, or even guaranteed healthcare. It means, literally, centuries more of life, greater resistance to disease, enhanced senses, bodies that are faster, stronger, and tougher than any human has ever been. That's what the Alignment tells itself — and believes — that it is trying to accomplish, and so, in its own eyes, it's a Force for Good™.

That was true of Rob Pierre, also, of course. Yes, he was a member of the corrupt power elite before his revolution, and, yes, he murdered — or had murdered — hundreds of thousands, probably even millions, of Legislaturalists and their families. And, yes, he pursued the war against Manticore when he "didn't have to." His problem was that he thought he did have to because without that focus, he would have lost control of his own revolution and Bad Things™ would have happened. The problem was that he wound up contributing to much larger Bad Things™ for the galaxy at large.

The reader, though, watched Pierre make one bargain after another with the devil and saw the consequences very clearly, not just from Manticore's side but from the side of people like Thomas Theisman, Warner Caslet, Shannon Foraker, and dozens of other Havenites. As such, it was easy to lose track of his "good intentions" and to remember which road is paved with them.

But another big difference between him and his allies and the Alignment (and I've done this deliberately) is that you never saw his or Oscar Saint-Just's home lives. You knew Pierre's son — briefly — and, unless you were pretty strange, you weren't exactly blown away by the Mother Theresa side of his personality. You never saw Saint-Just's family. And so you had these two guys who, whatever their motives, were wreaking enormous damage on billions of lives without anything to set them into a more humanist/humanized context.

With the Alignment, I've been careful to show you just that. You've seen Albrecht and his wife, including their last moments of life on Mesa. You've seen Albrecht interacting with his sons. In the upcoming book, you'll see more of that. And because of that, I've shown them to you through the eyes of a sympathetic situation. You're supposed to recognize that they are good parents, loving sons, good uncles to each other's children . . . who just happen to have sold their souls to further a fundamentally flawed — and almost certainly unnecessary — conspiracy that is going to kill billions even if it succeeds perfectly.

They fall into my second category above. They are true-believers, raised to be true-believers, and with nothing in their immediate orbit to bring them face-to-face with reality. Jack McBryde's critical flaw (from the Alignment's perspective) was a powerful sense of empathy. Herlander Simões and his desperate love for his culled foster daughter broke through to him on a personal level. And then, far worse, he extended from the individual to the general. He realized how many other Fredericas there'd already been, how many more there would be, and how much more terrible the casualty count was going to be when the plan was fully executed. I think it's highly probable that he would have suicided anyway if Victor and Anton hadn't offered him — and Herlander — a way out.

The Detweiler boys have a sense of empathy, but they apply it only to those within the group they recognize as being "on the right side of history." After so many centuries of the Detweiler Plan, they have completely dehumanized their adversaries . . . which, after all, is one of the things that the Beowulf Code feared might happen if someone started designing "super humans" who would find themselves the lions in a herd of antelope.

But for the reader to fully understand just how horrific their commitment to the Detweiler's Plan's objectives regardless of the cost truly is, I can't dehumanize them for him. Instead, I have to do the reverse.

Frankly, that may be one reason they strike some people as "a dud." It's not just that they don't display all sorts of superhuman abilities. They don't display any sense of themselves as an Evil Conspiracy™ at war with all the rest of the galaxy. They see themselves as the Forces of Good™ at war with the evil of the rest of the galaxy's blindness where the righteousness of their cause is concerned. And like political extremists everywhere, they're perfectly comfortable with the theory that "a few must be sacrificed for the good of the many." So let's shoot all the bourgeoisie and get started.

Edited because I accidentally hit the "submit" button instead of the "preview" button.

To quote Shannon Foraker, "Oops."



I think part of the problem is that overall gestalt over the idea has won out over the methods. "The ends justify the means" kind of thing. We have seen that with communism. Eventually things will be wonderful but we have to destroy all those baddies who are in the way. And there have been hundreds of millions of those.

In some countries, infants with brain disease are culled. It is done in the name of "making life easier for the parents," even for those who want the babies.

Here, it seems obvious to the Detweilers. Make the human race better. And the culling process when applied directly seems minor. We have only seen one real example and it came across as something viewed as a tragedy by all concerned. The doctors telling Herlander that his daughter must die are emotional descendants of the ones pushing abortions for Downs syndrome embryos.

The real problem is the group's desire to really push the changes on people. Most of us would like our kids to be smarter, stronger, healthier, even prettier than ourselves. Sometimes the velvet glove works better without an iron fist in it.

Remember that some of the mods done outside the MAlign group are not all that different from what the group is doing. Spending a few generations quietly improving your followers on a planet and letting them change the argument would work better than their methods.

But that has been their choice.


This brings the very foundation of genetic slavery back to the front. Who has the right to cull a human being? Who owns the right to the life of that human being being culled?

Genetic slavery works under the principle that the designers of the genetic combination a human being has is the owner of the life made possible by those genes. Whatever the owners do to that being is a matter of disposing of one's property. The MAlign members by extension are owned by their leadership. Their lives are to be disposed of as that leadership deems just. So, excel at executing the Plan and live, fail to execute well enough and be culled.

The GA and all who fight genetic slavery fight to assert that life belongs to the being living that life. They dispose of their own lives as they see fit. Genetic experimentation that does not accept the fundamental base of the GA position would be unacceptable. I suspect arguments for more stringent restrictions can easily be made, but this is the essential principle.

The interactions of the Detweilers hint at this. We've had discussions about Bardasano on the cusp of being culled. We've had Albrecht pass judgement of failure being not anyone's fault. The scenes hint that failure is punished and culled is a euphemism for being punished by execution. It isn't, culled is removing the human being as a failed experiment.

Henry Ford expressed it rather well. "A customer can have a car painted any color he wants as long as its black." The MAlign have perfect freedom to do whatever they deem just as long as it is executing the Grand Plan very well.

I wonder how many people on Darius will decide white cars are more suitable to their circumstances?
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:24 am

quite possibly a cat
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:51 am

ldwechsler wrote:Remember that some of the mods done outside the MAlign group are not all that different from what the group is doing. Spending a few generations quietly improving your followers on a planet and letting them change the argument would work better than their methods.
But there isn't enough revenge involved. Instead, what if you improve your followers, and then wander off to an unknown system where your improved followers can use their super-minds to make even better advances, hit Actuarial Escape Velocity, and then live forever?

Finally, to get revenge on a galaxy that rejected you, you fund a bunch of lobbying groups, think tanks, news orgs etc. dedicated to opposing genetic uplift and research paths that would lead to the same sort of longevity you enjoy. Then you can watch countless generations of descendants of your enemies die!
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:30 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

quite possibly a cat wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Remember that some of the mods done outside the MAlign group are not all that different from what the group is doing. Spending a few generations quietly improving your followers on a planet and letting them change the argument would work better than their methods.
But there isn't enough revenge involved. Instead, what if you improve your followers, and then wander off to an unknown system where your improved followers can use their super-minds to make even better advances, hit Actuarial Escape Velocity, and then live forever?

Finally, to get revenge on a galaxy that rejected you, you fund a bunch of lobbying groups, think tanks, news orgs etc. dedicated to opposing genetic uplift and research paths that would lead to the same sort of longevity you enjoy. Then you can watch countless generations of descendants of your enemies die!


Okay, now that's just sick! :lol:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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