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Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:26 pm

cthia
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Ok. Here's the thing. It broke my heart that everyone, Hemphill mainly, didn't vote to fry Young.

I know it was for the greater Manticoran good. I know that consensus really believes so. I've yielded to joining the bandwagon and jumping off of the bridge with all of my friends on this one, mom. :roll:

I acknowledge the astuteness and correctness of roseandheather when she pointed out the importance of the war effort, lest I forget.

But something's broken in me. Or something isn't broken. I couldn't accept or come to terms with how Honor was treated. I couldn't get, still can't get—don't think the getting will ever be good for me; simply leaves a sour taste in my mouth—how Honor was treated. The personal message it must have sent to Honor, when she was alone and crying in her cabin even breaks my heart. When Honor really needed her nation, her nation turned its back on her and ran for its own lives. Honor gave everything. The reality of it almost broke her.

Internally, it must have seemed like a double-cross. The poor girl had her toughest fights within her own orbit. Her own government and her own navy and the Manticoran society she was fighting for was always hitting her with broadsides, while her personal wedge was down. There was never any logical reason for Honor to personally perceive of any need to even have a wedge up when on, or in orbit of, Manticore. She took the same unprovoked, personal, lame-ass sitting duck of an attack as Sigbee's ships took from Byng.

How it must have hurt those close to her. If I'd've been a Rafe, a Harkness, a Henke a Hamish... I'd've had a hard time sleeping. Those who worshipped Harrington must have been unbearably hurt and felt debilitating helplessness and hopelessness -- those who knew that the woman was doing her job. Did her job, and was a major reason they, and Manticore was still alive. As an officer, I would have had a hard time looking Honor in the face, post haste.

And that was why it could have had an even more negative impact on the navy than voting to fry the worthless piece of shit. It is the kind of thing that makes a Simoes defect. It turned a Foraker and a few others into traitors at the horrid way Ransom treated such a worthy opponent, because of the deeds of the seeds Honor had sown. Yet her own Star Nation...

It is also a PoV that I found myself lusting for in storyline. Honor crying on her mother's, or father's—or both—shoulder about how she really felt about her government's support or lack thereof. Off the record. Not now, long after the fact. But then, immediately after. And now too.

This is the kind of shit that weakens officers, or important people, and primes their pump and ripens them for becoming traitors. The enemy certainly knew her worth. And they couldn't believe their good fortune. The enemy knew that if they were Honor, chances are good that they would haul ass to the other side quickly. Shee-it, if these are friends, who needs enemies?!

It really does breaks my heart when I think of the personal hurt that Honor must have felt. "What must I do for my country for my country to do something for me?" Honor had given an eye, an arm, her first real lover, her restful nights, the health of her treecat, her relatives, her chancellor, a religious friend, and she was still banished. How embarrassing. Even the Havenites—her own enemies—thought Honor was dumped on. They couldn't believe their good fortune.

"Perhaps too much riches, like what is brought on with the MWJ has made the Manticorans cold, Theisman."

It almost broke Honor. She turned into a broken shell of the finest tactician mankind's history has ever seen. And she was merely stress fractures from breaking.


It simply fractured the no man left behind policy.

One of the headlining stories must have been the piece of the Grayson's minds that the Graysons wanted to give.

The classified Grayson document sent to Manticoran government after what was done to Honor must have been said to have contained the most cuss words of any document in the history of man, foreign or domestic.

The opening line must have been something like this...

"WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON IN THE MANTICORAN GOVERNMENT?!"

The Manticoran government must have come close to making the Graysons lose their religion. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:24 pm

Bluesqueak
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Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by roseandheather   » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:07 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

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Location: Republic of Haven

Bluesqueak wrote:Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.


::STANDING OVATION::
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:00 am

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

roseandheather wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.


::STANDING OVATION::


I think you're too forgiving of Hemphill. It was not that she "could see both sides." She knew the disaster that would follow if Young were found not guilty.

The navy would suffer terribly. The people on the board would have been shunned. I would guess there would be no more promotions and no more assignments. The sailors in general would have been furious.

It would have been a disaster for that group. Of course, the Queen would never forgive them. And neither would most of the navy as well as the Commons.

Hemphill was aware of all of that. Of course, Honor was able to go to Grayson and was even more of a hero.

And I would bet by this time that the Conservatives were really out of power and there were far fewer Progressives (who were only interested in power so would not want to oppose the leaders). Also, the Commons has more power and St Martin is now in the Lords.

While Honor might pay little attention to some details, I would bet she enjoys watching those who went after her suffer.

And Hemphill, who did arrange the compromise, now works with her husband.


There was always a tension between the Lords and the Commons and this could have really created a mess. I would have loved to see what the Centrist leaders in the Commons were saying at this time.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:43 am

PeterZ
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Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

ldwechsler wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.


roseandheather wrote:::STANDING OVATION::


I think you're too forgiving of Hemphill. It was not that she "could see both sides." She knew the disaster that would follow if Young were found not guilty.

The navy would suffer terribly. The people on the board would have been shunned. I would guess there would be no more promotions and no more assignments. The sailors in general would have been furious.

It would have been a disaster for that group. Of course, the Queen would never forgive them. And neither would most of the navy as well as the Commons.

Hemphill was aware of all of that. Of course, Honor was able to go to Grayson and was even more of a hero.

And I would bet by this time that the Conservatives were really out of power and there were far fewer Progressives (who were only interested in power so would not want to oppose the leaders). Also, the Commons has more power and St Martin is now in the Lords.

While Honor might pay little attention to some details, I would bet she enjoys watching those who went after her suffer.

And Hemphill, who did arrange the compromise, now works with her husband.


There was always a tension between the Lords and the Commons and this could have really created a mess. I would have loved to see what the Centrist leaders in the Commons were saying at this time.

Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by pappilon   » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:30 pm

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

PeterZ wrote:I think you're too forgiving of Hemphill. It was not that she "could see both sides." She knew the disaster that would follow if Young were found not guilty.

The navy would suffer terribly. The people on the board would have been shunned. I would guess there would be no more promotions and no more assignments. The sailors in general would have been furious.

It would have been a disaster for that group. Of course, the Queen would never forgive them. And neither would most of the navy as well as the Commons.

Hemphill was aware of all of that. Of course, Honor was able to go to Grayson and was even more of a hero.

And I would bet by this time that the Conservatives were really out of power and there were far fewer Progressives (who were only interested in power so would not want to oppose the leaders). Also, the Commons has more power and St Martin is now in the Lords.

While Honor might pay little attention to some details, I would bet she enjoys watching those who went after her suffer.

And Hemphill, who did arrange the compromise, now works with her husband.


There was always a tension between the Lords and the Commons and this could have really created a mess. I would have loved to see what the Centrist leaders in the Commons were saying at this time.

Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.[/quote]

I think the only credit Red Sonja should get is for finally swallowing her personal animosity toward HH, and making a compromise "for the good of The Service." At that moment in time she was one of the privileged who gained from the right of the nobility to promote their own regardless of actual competence, as rank doth indeed have its privilege. She, maybe, gets credit for reluctantly conceding that maybeHarrington actually made the right call and Young made the wrong one. Unfortunately she couldn't quite get to the wrong decision was cowardice in the face of the enemy. Not much credit there, defending her own against the commoner dirt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:15 pm

PeterZ
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Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

pappilon wrote:
I think the only credit Red Sonja should get is for finally swallowing her personal animosity toward HH, and making a compromise "for the good of The Service." At that moment in time she was one of the privileged who gained from the right of the nobility to promote their own regardless of actual competence, as rank doth indeed have its privilege. She, maybe, gets credit for reluctantly conceding that maybeHarrington actually made the right call and Young made the wrong one. Unfortunately she couldn't quite get to the wrong decision was cowardice in the face of the enemy. Not much credit there, defending her own against the commoner dirt.

You malign Red Sonja. Her boss in House of Steel was a commoner immigrant. She displayed no problems at all with that. Her only issue was pride. Not pride in her birth status, but in her God given native intelligence. She is one of the few people who truly are the smartest in almost any room she is in.

Taking her hard driven attitude of the early books as a focused genius taking upon herself the life's purpose of her King and that of her mentor as well, gives one an accurate understanding of Red Sonja Hemphill. She isn't all that likable but is worthy of respect and admiration.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:39 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.
And the apparent sacrifice on Honor's part appeared, without the benefit of precog, to be minor.

White Haven had suggested she take a little time to make an Steadholder visit to Grayon during the trial, to cut down on how much direct flak she'd take from the Conservative's press leading up to, and during the trial. So you'd assume Young gets dishonorable kicked out of the navy and rots planetside (not even in Lords nor with access to the Northridge files; since you'd expect his father to live for many more years). Honor comes back at the end of her leave and gets to be Admiral Mondeau's flag captains in a BC squadron assigned to White Haven's 3rd fleet; the fleet tasked with the majority of the RMN's current offensive operations.

The trial and cashiering of Pavel would barely have been a minor blip to her carrier.

I seriously doubt Earl Dimitri Young would be willing to expend any leverage or resources in a real vendetta against Honor; not when he knew Pavel had fucked up and he'd succeeded in saving Pavel's life. (Now if the board voted to execute that might have kicked off vendetta time) It was Dimitri dropping dead that gave Pavel the resources and ability to pursue his insane vendetta against Honor and cause all that grief.


From a military justice point of view Lord Pavel Young deserved to be executed. But nobody could have predicted the fallout from sparing him in order to get cooperation on the critically needed declaration of war.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:11 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.
And the apparent sacrifice on Honor's part appeared, without the benefit of precog, to be minor.

White Haven had suggested she take a little time to make an Steadholder visit to Grayon during the trial, to cut down on how much direct flak she'd take from the Conservative's press leading up to, and during the trial. So you'd assume Young gets dishonorable kicked out of the navy and rots planetside (not even in Lords nor with access to the Northridge files; since you'd expect his father to live for many more years). Honor comes back at the end of her leave and gets to be Admiral Mondeau's flag captains in a BC squadron assigned to White Haven's 3rd fleet; the fleet tasked with the majority of the RMN's current offensive operations.

The trial and cashiering of Pavel would barely have been a minor blip to her carrier.

I seriously doubt Earl Dimitri Young would be willing to expend any leverage or resources in a real vendetta against Honor; not when he knew Pavel had fucked up and he'd succeeded in saving Pavel's life. (Now if the board voted to execute that might have kicked off vendetta time) It was Dimitri dropping dead that gave Pavel the resources and ability to pursue his insane vendetta against Honor and cause all that grief.


From a military justice point of view Lord Pavel Young deserved to be executed. But nobody could have predicted the fallout from sparing him in order to get cooperation on the critically needed declaration of war.


I agree with Jonathan's post. The need for the war declaration meant that there were larger issues than what happened to Pavel Young. The need to bring the officer corp together had to happen and Sonja's vote made it possible.

I think that it is a misreading of the text to assume that Sonja had a vendetta against Harrington. There is no doubt but what she was frustrated the day of the fleet exercise. But that wasn't directed at Honor nearly so much as at having the grav lance crap out. It wasn't Sonja, but Janecek who got Honor exiled to Basilisk.

Something that needs to be said here. Along with King Roger and Admiral Adcock, it was Sonja's brilliance, commitment, and energy that made the Star Kingdom's survival and eventual victory possible against the Peeps. Even Hamish eventually had to admit that.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Top 5 Hardest Pills To Swallow
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:37 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.
And the apparent sacrifice on Honor's part appeared, without the benefit of precog, to be minor.

White Haven had suggested she take a little time to make an Steadholder visit to Grayon during the trial, to cut down on how much direct flak she'd take from the Conservative's press leading up to, and during the trial. So you'd assume Young gets dishonorable kicked out of the navy and rots planetside (not even in Lords nor with access to the Northridge files; since you'd expect his father to live for many more years). Honor comes back at the end of her leave and gets to be Admiral Mondeau's flag captains in a BC squadron assigned to White Haven's 3rd fleet; the fleet tasked with the majority of the RMN's current offensive operations.

The trial and cashiering of Pavel would barely have been a minor blip to her carrier.

I seriously doubt Earl Dimitri Young would be willing to expend any leverage or resources in a real vendetta against Honor; not when he knew Pavel had fucked up and he'd succeeded in saving Pavel's life. (Now if the board voted to execute that might have kicked off vendetta time) It was Dimitri dropping dead that gave Pavel the resources and ability to pursue his insane vendetta against Honor and cause all that grief.


From a military justice point of view Lord Pavel Young deserved to be executed. But nobody could have predicted the fallout from sparing him in order to get cooperation on the critically needed declaration of war.
n7axw wrote:I agree with Jonathan's post. The need for the war declaration meant that there were larger issues than what happened to Pavel Young. The need to bring the officer corp together had to happen and Sonja's vote made it possible.

I think that it is a misreading of the text to assume that Sonja had a vendetta against Harrington. There is no doubt but what she was frustrated the day of the fleet exercise. But that wasn't directed at Honor nearly so much as at having the grav lance crap out. It wasn't Sonja, but Janecek who got Honor exiled to Basilisk.

Something that needs to be said here. Along with King Roger and Admiral Adcock, it was Sonja's brilliance, commitment, and energy that made the Star Kingdom's survival and eventual victory possible against the Peeps. Even Hamish eventually had to admit that.

Don

-

There is no way that Sonja ever had any sort of a vendetta against Harrington. Sonja made that clear in textev herself. As a matter of fact, I think Sonja actually liked Honor. Sonja was more of a recluse, holed up inside of her own tech-ridden dreams, not totally unlike Shannon before the sleeping Forakerian giant was rudely awakened by the Committee of its own Public Unsafety. Textev also supported Sonja's lone-wolf social status as a symptomatic factor of her rare genius.

If there ever could be a lost branch of the MAlign tree, it could very well be Hemphill! Which would really be horrible.

In fact, who better to make Sonja's genius shine than the Salamander herself?

Which brings me to a hypothesis that the Star Kingdom was kept alive by a one-two punch of Foraker and Harrington...

Perhaps one day I'll finally post a fan version of Why Manticore Won the War.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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