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SL Diplomacy

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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:46 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
drothgery wrote: The People's Republic of Haven was a classic, aggressive, militarily and territorially expansive empire. The restored Republic of Haven is not, at least under the current administration, and Eloise Pritchart is probably going to have long enough in office to pretty thoroughly break Haven of its conquistador tendencies.

I can't imagine any presidential republic established post-universal (or even common among the elite) prolong with any pretense at being a real democracy not having term limits of some sort for the president. And I'm not sure Eloise could completely kick Haven of the habit in 8-12 years or so. Though of course it's your series ...




A few points:

a. The constant discussion of health care plans has little to do with real quality of life. Cuba has one and I know doctors who've fled to report they could not even get aspirin. People didn't pay but often didn't get anything.

And even in countries doing better there is rationing as well as other problems. Of course, the US has more than a few of its own.

Keep in mind that we're dealing with societies that are far in the future. Most diseases are gone thanks to better treatments. Note that modern medicine goes back on a couple of hundred years while they have ten times that amount of time.

But changes are real. Prolong made a huge difference. In Grayson, a minor booboo when providing an absolutely needed cure led to routine polygamy.

Science can change societies and many of them were changed. Some, thanks to OFS, for the worse and some for the better.

But change does come.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:40 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
drothgery wrote: The People's Republic of Haven was a classic, aggressive, militarily and territorially expansive empire. The restored Republic of Haven is not, at least under the current administration, and Eloise Pritchart is probably going to have long enough in office to pretty thoroughly break Haven of its conquistador tendencies.
Drothgery's wrote:I can't imagine any presidential republic established post-universal (or even common among the elite) prolong with any pretense at being a real democracy not having term limits of some sort for the president. And I'm not sure Eloise could completely kick Haven of the habit in 8-12 years or so. Though of course it's your series ...




A few points:

a. The constant discussion of health care plans has little to do with real quality of life. Cuba has one and I know doctors who've fled to report they could not even get aspirin. People didn't pay but often didn't get anything.

And even in countries doing better there is rationing as well as other problems. Of course, the US has more than a few of its own.

Keep in mind that we're dealing with societies that are far in the future. Most diseases are gone thanks to better treatments. Note that modern medicine goes back on a couple of hundred years while they have ten times that amount of time.

But changes are real. Prolong made a huge difference. In Grayson, a minor booboo when providing an absolutely needed cure led to routine polygamy.

Science can change societies and many of them were changed. Some, thanks to OFS, for the worse and some for the better.

But change does come.


Not my quote. I believe that's Drothgery's. Let me fix that.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:54 am

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ldwechsler wrote:a. The constant discussion of health care plans has little to do with real quality of life. Cuba has one and I know doctors who've fled to report they could not even get aspirin. People didn't pay but often didn't get anything.


Oh, maybe there is this tiny thing named "USA economical blockade" to blame, eh? ;)
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by pappilon   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:20 am

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Dilandu wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:a. The constant discussion of health care plans has little to do with real quality of life. Cuba has one and I know doctors who've fled to report they could not even get aspirin. People didn't pay but often didn't get anything.


Oh, maybe there is this tiny thing named "USA economical blockade" to blame, eh? ;)


Cuba sells sugar to Russia, and South America,and has several hundred if not thousand doctors scattered across Latin America, it gets oil from Venezuela and leasing fees from the US for Guantanamo. The blockade has been pretty ineffectual if the purpose was to depose Tio Fidel.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:11 pm

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GregD wrote:Here in America, being on the government dole leads to massive single parenthood, destruction of families, and drug addiction (in the WWC case: the opioid epidemic).

Dilandu is wrong, and if he'd like to provide the links to support his claims, I'll be happy to further point out why he's wrong.

"Universal basic income" destroys people.


I disagree--we see massive single parenthood on the dole because single parents are the ones that most likely need it.

And the opioid epidemic has little do to with the dole.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:17 pm

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This thread makes no sense. This can't be settled by diplomacy.

The GA: If they settle it by diplomacy they'll face a new war with the SL once they've armed up enough to take on the GA. The GA has to destroy the SL.

The SLN: They hold their empire together by fear. If they fail to put down the upstart Manticore their ability to hold their empire together fails and their empire unravels.

For both sides this is a battle for survival. To fail to destroy the other is to be destroyed.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by n7axw   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:53 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:This thread makes no sense. This can't be settled by diplomacy.

The GA: If they settle it by diplomacy they'll face a new war with the SL once they've armed up enough to take on the GA. The GA has to destroy the SL.

The SLN: They hold their empire together by fear. If they fail to put down the upstart Manticore their ability to hold their empire together fails and their empire unravels.

For both sides this is a battle for survival. To fail to destroy the other is to be destroyed.


This is overly simplistic. There are at least three layers, perhaps more, to the League. First, there are the Core worlds who constructed the League to serve its interests by enforcing peace, promoting trade and commerce. The League is set up and structured very carefully to avoid having the League interfering in the affairs of individual worlds. Denying the League the right to levy taxes and forcing it to survive on a fee for service structure was supposed to curb the size and influence of the bureaucracy. By in large this succeeded for the Core. These worlds experience little, if any intimidation from the League. They are by in large prosperous and free. The bureaucracy by in large favors these worlds.

A second layer would be the shell who are full League members but are not as prosperous and who have seen their own interests sacrificed in favor of the Core.

Finally, we have the protectorates who are under the stewardship of the OFS. The resources of these worlds are systematicly plundered to provide a revenue stream to keep the bureaucracy afloat and enable it to expand. Man, if not most of these worlds are in the Verge which might be referred to as the outer shell. These worlds experience both economic exploitation and political tyranny. Domination of these world is shared between OFS and the trans stellar corporations.

My point is that the League is only "imperial" in its relationships to the protectorates. We could also talk about the independents where there is no official OFS presence, but who are dominated by the transstellars who can call for OFS help to retain control.

So it ends up being a quite a mix. For most of the League, the bureaucracy rules by at least tacit consent even though the political organs allowing the electorate serious input into the decision making process is largely ineffectual.

I think that the way the story line is going, the League will be destroyed, at least in current form. But I could also visualize the League being drasticly trimed back and held in check with Manticore and Haven surviving and even prospering by building a competing set of economic and defensive arrangements both in the Verge and the Shell with some core worlds added to the mix. That, as I understand it is the point of the Harrington doctrine. There is going to be lots of diplomacy involved in that. The point is not so much to destroy the League's existence as to destroy its dominance.

I am reminded in a way of Britian's struggle to survive with Europe over a period of time from about the mid-sixteenth century through the mid 20th into the beginning of the cold war. Her navy was a dominate factor of course. But so was her quest for alliances to counterbalance whoever happened to be the dominate power of the time.

First you have the Spanish quest for European hegemony which was artificially prolonged by the treasure fleets from the New World. The Brits used their navy to disrupt the treasure fleets and encouraged Dutch independence. Then a bit later begins France's century and a half quest for dominance. Against that the Brits ally sometimes with the Dutch and the Austrians as well as using her seapower and her colonies to strip France of her New World empire.

This period ends with the final defeat of Napoleon in 1815 which sees the rise of Prussia and eventually a unified Germany against which Britian allys with France and Russia.

The process is a lot more messy than what I have described. But the point is seeking a balance of power against whoever the dominate power in Europe might be at the moment, especially seeking to insure the independence of the low countries.

That is how Msnticore will have to survive against a truncated League or whatever might take its place.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:36 pm

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n7axw wrote:I think that the way the story line is going, the League will be destroyed, at least in current form. But I could also visualize the League being drasticly trimed back and held in check with Manticore and Haven surviving and even prospering by building a competing set of economic and defensive arrangements both in the Verge and the Shell with some core worlds added to the mix. That, as I understand it is the point of the Harrington doctrine. There is going to be lots of diplomacy involved in that. The point is not so much to destroy the League's existence as to destroy its dominance.

I don't think the League us gonna survive at all. There are obviously gonna be states that break away from it, but But unless someone tries to force some group of systems to be the new League no one will volunteer.

The main reason why is the debt. Who is gonna want to say "We're the Reformed Solarian League?" we'll pay off all the debt ran up by a massive star nation! Even if 90% of the core worlds got together and formed a new star nation they'd probably call it something like "The Completely New Star Nation that is In No Way Related to the Solarian League".

I think the best bet for the Harrington Doctrine though is to build up something like NATO with Manticore as one of the core members. Which might actually be easier than expected if Manticore ends up rescuing the Sollies from the evil mass murdering SLN.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:04 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I don't need to live under the Soviet system to know it would have taken the productive US agriculture system and ruined it. It would have further squandered the limited available capital in the 1920's US.



That is exactly what Comrade Stalin did with The Ukraine, and lead to the Holodomor. Can you imagine how Mid-Westerners and Southerners would have taken to collectivization? Red Dawn would have occurred on a country wide basis.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Castenea   » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:12 pm

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n7axw wrote:This is overly simplistic. There are at least three layers, perhaps more, to the League. First, there are the Core worlds who constructed the League to serve its interests by enforcing peace, promoting trade and commerce. The League is set up and structured very carefully to avoid having the League interfering in the affairs of individual worlds. Denying the League the right to levy taxes and forcing it to survive on a fee for service structure was supposed to curb the size and influence of the bureaucracy. By in large this succeeded for the Core. These worlds experience little, if any intimidation from the League. They are by in large prosperous and free. The bureaucracy by in large favors these worlds.

A second layer would be the shell who are full League members but are not as prosperous and who have seen their own interests sacrificed in favor of the Core.

Finally, we have the protectorates who are under the stewardship of the OFS. The resources of these worlds are systematicly plundered to provide a revenue stream to keep the bureaucracy afloat and enable it to expand. Man, if not most of these worlds are in the Verge which might be referred to as the outer shell. These worlds experience both economic exploitation and political tyranny. Domination of these world is shared between OFS and the trans stellar corporations.

My point is that the League is only "imperial" in its relationships to the protectorates. We could also talk about the independents where there is no official OFS presence, but who are dominated by the transstellars who can call for OFS help to retain control.

So it ends up being a quite a mix. For most of the League, the bureaucracy rules by at least tacit consent even though the political organs allowing the electorate serious input into the decision making process is largely ineffectual.

Don I find that it has taken the League this long to crack up a bit of a stretch. With the bureaucrats that are actually making decisions so isolated from those who are forced to deal with the consequences of those decisions, I am surprised that the league worked well enough that they were not shedding systems left and right centuries before this.

As an example from recent/current events, my understanding is that a driver of both Brexit and the current Catalan referendum is local officials implementing rules that are at best clunky, and at worst viewed as counterproductive by those expected to obey. When the populace complains to their local politicians, they get buck passing to bureaucrats who are unaccountable. Thus a big part of Brexit was an attempt to get the mid level bureaucrats to listen to those they were regulating, and to make the regulations appropriate and implementable for the locals.
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