Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

SL Diplomacy

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:22 am

Dilandu
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1219
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

noblehunter wrote:One would hope that Manticore would be rather better at nation building than we are. Technology is more than just new fancy toys. I suspect the Andies probably pioneered a rigorous process of turning failed states into functional polities (albeit it polities which are part of the Empire).


Frankly, never noticed any particular sociological improvements in Honorverse... Let's not forget, the series is already relatively old, and became "future past" a bit - including sociology. For example, according to the recent - real-life - experiments, the Basic Living Stipend should not have a destructive effect on Haven's society; modern experiments with guaranteed income demonstrated, that peoples in such systems actually became more economically active, with more desire to invest money, start their own buisness, search for a better job.
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by noblehunter   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:43 am

noblehunter
Commander

Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:49 pm

Dilandu wrote:
Frankly, never noticed any particular sociological improvements in Honorverse... Let's not forget, the series is already relatively old, and became "future past" a bit - including sociology. For example, according to the recent - real-life - experiments, the Basic Living Stipend should not have a destructive effect on Haven's society; modern experiments with guaranteed income demonstrated, that peoples in such systems actually became more economically active, with more desire to invest money, start their own buisness, search for a better job.


My take on the BLS is it was set too high when it was first implemented, which resulted in a burst of inflation (which is line with current thinking about such things). However, instead of letting the system reach equilibrium at the new prices, the government increased the BLS to constantly chase the higher prices. Coupled with other bad decisions about how to deal with the problem resulted in the Dolists, even though it wasn't an inevitable result of the BLS.
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:31 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 1889
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:39 am
Location: South Carolina

noblehunter wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
Frankly, never noticed any particular sociological improvements in Honorverse... Let's not forget, the series is already relatively old, and became "future past" a bit - including sociology. For example, according to the recent - real-life - experiments, the Basic Living Stipend should not have a destructive effect on Haven's society; modern experiments with guaranteed income demonstrated, that peoples in such systems actually became more economically active, with more desire to invest money, start their own buisness, search for a better job.


My take on the BLS is it was set too high when it was first implemented, which resulted in a burst of inflation (which is line with current thinking about such things). However, instead of letting the system reach equilibrium at the new prices, the government increased the BLS to constantly chase the higher prices. Coupled with other bad decisions about how to deal with the problem resulted in the Dolists, even though it wasn't an inevitable result of the BLS.



That's essentially correct.

Those "bad decisions" weren't part of the original BLS's creation. Rather, they were the result of the fashion in which the BLS was turned into a "bread and circuses" deal between a highly corrupt, entrenched political class and a bunch of "machine politicians" willing and able to deliver whatever votes were needed in return for a piece of the pie. And for a degree of control/influence over income distribution and public services which helped shore up their clout in their "districts" and so allowed them to exert even greater control over those reliable votes they were supposed to produce on cue.

That was the first really "bad decision," because (among other things) it had the effect of requiring the Dolist managers to be able to prove to their clutches of voters that they were constantly making things better . . . or at least providing more income even if the income had progressively less buying power. (But pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! We can always get you a raise when the cost of living kicks up again next quarter!)

The knock-on effect of that was that the public till started running dry and the Legislaturalists found themselves with a binary solution set: either make the reforms needed to restore the internal economy to solvency, or else find another infusion of cash from somewhere outside the internal ecoonomy. Making the reforms would almost certainly lay bare the cynicism of their deal with the Dolist Managers, which --- in turn --- would almost certainly lead to their losing power at the least and could have much nastier (and more . . . permanent consequences) if the public got really pissed. That being the case, they did what corrupt, self-serving politicians always do and chose the other option: conquest, with the added benefit that building the navy they needed would require huge chunks of investment which they could spin at least in part as "public works" investment to try and fix the problems with the sagging economy. Thereby helping to distract attention from the reasons that economy was sagging in the first place. . . including the fact that the military expenditures were putting an even bigger drag on it. At the very least, they should have made a choice between guns or butter; instead, they chose to buy both guns and butter on the theory (to paraphrase Machiavelli) that while butter may not always get you good guns, good guns can always get you butter.

Unfortunately, what they had embraced was an ultimately self-destroying cycle and, like way too many Ancien Régimes throughout history, their own tunnel vision --- and self interest, both as individuals and as an entire class --- prevented them from doing anything about it.

I'll admit that I'm not as sold on the "modern experiments with guaranteed income [which] demonstrated, that peoples in such systems actually became more economically active, with more desire to invest money, start their own buisness, search for a better job" as some. I take assertions on both sides of that issue with a certain degree of salt. But the way I built the PRH never assumed that the BLS made the original RoH's economic collapse inevitable. A lot of people in-universe did, because they were looking at the macro effect --- which was that the RoH had collapsed --- without access to the internal metric of the deals the Legislaturalists had struck.

Had the story line followed my original projections, readers would have been finding out a lot about the real internal dynamic in the book which would have followed Honor's death in the originally planned Battle of Manticore. Didn't work out that way, so there may well still be aspects of this which haven't been made fully explicit, although I think I've probably at least touched on all or most of it with the various Nouveau Paris viewpoint scenes since Saint-Just . . . suffered his accident.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by GregD   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:36 pm

GregD
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:29 am

runsforcelery wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
For example, according to the recent - real-life - experiments, the Basic Living Stipend should not have a destructive effect on Haven's society; modern experiments with guaranteed income demonstrated, that peoples in such systems actually became more economically active, with more desire to invest money, start their own buisness, search for a better job.



I'll admit that I'm not as sold on the "modern experiments with guaranteed income [which] demonstrated, that peoples in such systems actually became more economically active, with more desire to invest money, start their own buisness, search for a better job" as some.


Well, that's because you pay attention to the world around you.

Here in America, being on the government dole leads to massive single parenthood, destruction of families, and drug addiction (in the WWC case: the opioid epidemic).

Dilandu is wrong, and if he'd like to provide the links to support his claims, I'll be happy to further point out why he's wrong.

"Universal basic income" destroys people.
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:18 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

I think there is an opportunity for Solarian diplomacy. But the vector that you propose is a no fly zone unless it is in earnest. It isn't. But let's say that it is in earnest. Then the fruits of that God given wisdom would be to apply that diplomacy inward. The League does not need to diplomatically court outside League space. They need to change the error of their ways and court their own appendages. Announce a new League policy. Announce that it is willing to look into the allegations of outside coercion of an unseen enemy.

They should accept Beowulf's succession. Allow Beowulf their secession with the League's blessing. Adopt a new attitude and spread the tills of centuries of graft to other systems, rebuilding their faith in the League. That'll work for them. But it's a hard phucking pill to swallow.

Basically, it comes down to my original proposal many salmon trips upstream. I'll fish it out.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:35 am

Dilandu
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1219
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

GregD wrote:Dilandu is wrong, and if he'd like to provide the links to support his claims, I'll be happy to further point out why he's wrong.

"Universal basic income" destroys people.


Please comment on GiveDirectlt ongoing experiment in Kenya. This experiment is going since 2008, so by your theorty the experimental area must already be lifless wasteland, populated only by remaining drug addicts.

The sociology, my dear GregD, is much more complicated science that usually assumed...
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:37 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Universal Basic Income does not destroy people.

Depression — manifested out of the effects of racism, prejudice, corruption and a lack of concern, opportunity and compassion — destroys people. Drugs are simply the cure for the depression. It has been said that some of the smartest people are drug addicts, because people with the biggest brains have the biggest dreams. And lack of opportunity gives them the biggest minds to numb.

People analyzing it from the outside with a lack of empathetic compassion will only see the topical issue. They are afraid to peel back the epidermal layer to see what's really going on and what's actually coursing through the veins.

Will universal income fuel drug addiction? Of course it will. It will also fuel success. There will always be some measure of drug addiction -- those poor souls who are too far gone to care. Too far gone to be [br b]ought back from the brink of despair and the precipice of doom. Caused by a system of insensitivity, corruption, greed, prejudice and malice aforethought which begets the same thinking that a universal stipend will destroy people. It is this thinking itself that destroys people, because it destroys the dream.

The solution is a universal stipend supported by a real commitment to people.

Offer a PB&J sandwich with respect, instead of a steak with condescension. People must have faith in people, even if there's no faith in a God.

It is funny how we choose to either make it rain money or make it rain respect. Why can't we make it rain both? It rains cats and dogs in people's lives.

Does a basic stipend represent an overnight cure?

No.

The hole wasn't dug overnight. It can't be filled overnight.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Daryl   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:22 am

Daryl
Admiral

Posts: 2266
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

This issue is totally complex because people are complex. However as a macro overview look at the the countries that have a social democratic system with a national universal welfare and health net. Countries like all the Scandinavians, Canada, Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand and Australia. They are the ones that survived the GFC best, and regularly top the various international agencies' lists of the best places to live.
You can go further to look at places like Venezuela that have gone the Haven Dolist route.
The trick seems to be to provide just enough to stop the fear of starving to death or not having basic medical support, but leave an incentive to do better.
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by drothgery   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:39 am

drothgery
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

runsforcelery wrote:The People's Republic of Haven was a classic, aggressive, militarily and territorially expansive empire. The restored Republic of Haven is not, at least under the current administration, and Eloise Pritchart is probably going to have long enough in office to pretty thoroughly break Haven of its conquistador tendencies.

I can't imagine any presidential republic established post-universal (or even common among the elite) prolong with any pretense at being a real democracy not having term limits of some sort for the president. And I'm not sure Eloise could completely kick Haven of the habit in 8-12 years or so. Though of course it's your series ...
Top
Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:45 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

drothgery wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:The People's Republic of Haven was a classic, aggressive, militarily and territorially expansive empire. The restored Republic of Haven is not, at least under the current administration, and Eloise Pritchart is probably going to have long enough in office to pretty thoroughly break Haven of its conquistador tendencies.

I can't imagine any presidential republic established post-universal (or even common among the elite) prolong with any pretense at being a real democracy not having term limits of some sort for the president. And I'm not sure Eloise could completely kick Haven of the habit in 8-12 years or so. Though of course it's your series ...


Her term is 5 years. I doubt there are absolute limits, but would find it likely that Havenite Presidents have limits of 4-5 consecutive terms with a mandatory gap of 1-3 terms before they can run again. More likely, the issues hasn't been brought up yet as the original constitution was reinstated just recently. One suspects term limits were not part of that document.
Top

Return to Honorverse