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Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3

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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by kzt   » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:47 pm

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Theemile wrote:And for the GA, Does it have the ability do give away a DN load's worth of missile pods to 2000 verge and protectorate systems? Will we see them at an Idaho/Zunker, of course those are GA members or systems already under the GA umbrella. Of course we will see them at Tillerman and Montana - Those are Manty member systems. But what about Macintosh? or Meyers. What about Saltash, under a new local government?

Oh sure it does. And the MA has the ability to bribe their way to getting them.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:02 am

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kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:And for the GA, Does it have the ability do give away a DN load's worth of missile pods to 2000 verge and protectorate systems? Will we see them at an Idaho/Zunker, of course those are GA members or systems already under the GA umbrella. Of course we will see them at Tillerman and Montana - Those are Manty member systems. But what about Macintosh? or Meyers. What about Saltash, under a new local government?

Oh sure it does. And the MA has the ability to bribe their way to getting them.



Well played, sir! ;) :)

Thanks for making the point before I had to. Trust me, the GA is only too well aware of the dangers involved in letting their top tier tech out where Bap People can get a gander at it for freebies.

They might --- might --- eventually offer it in an "export version," the way the SLN's done for centuries, but even that's unlikely when they don't even know which rock to turn over looking for the Alignment. :roll:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:41 am

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Theemile wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Military Assistance Packages from the GA (or other arms merchant or would-be empire.)


...

And for the GA, Does it have the ability do give away a DN load's worth of missile pods to 2000 verge and protectorate systems?

...

And, after they install various levels of Moriarty in the ~150 Haven systems, ~55 Manty systems and ~50 Alliance systems, we will see the hardening of Erewhon, Maya, the ~150 former Haven systems, and the ~60 Andermani systems.

Then, perhaps there will be time for the verge. Yes, 1 or 2 might be done here and there, but 2000 worlds is a lot to defend.


1: The GA doesn't have a "responsibility" to defend all 2000+ former league members. They only have a responsibility to assist those systems that sign mutual defense treaties and trade agreements with Manticore, Haven, Grayson, or the GA as a group. Anyone who doesn't sign on as at least a trading partner doesn't get Military Assistance. How much Military Assistance any particular system gets depends on the wording of the treaties they sign and their strategic value to the GA.

2: Haven has a few billion missiles that are better than anyone except Manticore's. Since they are going to be upgrading their front-line systems to Mk23 and/or Apollo with the "GA Specials" being built at Bolthole and finished at Beowulf (with KHII), they are going to have a LOT of surplus to pass out (or sell cheaply) in the near future. Manticore/Grayson aren't the only source of missiles, LACs, or hyper-capable warships. Erewhon, for example, is going to get rich selling "Manticore Lite" ships and ERMs.

3: The GA doesn't need to provide missiles, pods, or Moriarty command modules. Plans are much easier to distribute; plus royalties on license built Havenite level tech is a positive income instead of a drain on resources. For particularly capable systems, vetted as reliable partners, plans for all-up RMN tech might be distributed as a way of diversifying re-supply logistics. If GA/RMN forces can re-supply without a months long supply line, they can cover more territory and protect more systems.

4: The GA is NOT going to be the only source of Military Assistance. The Andermani are going to stick their oar into troubled waters--whether reverting to mercenaries or absorbing troubled systems. The Erewhonese are already selling ships and missiles to one break-away OFS sector. They're not going to balk at making money from others.

Whatever else happens to them, Technodyne (and probably other SLN suppliers) is still going to be the well-known and trusted arms supplier to the Solarian League. Members with substantial SDFs are going to be looking for re-supply of SLN tech and whatever upgrades Technodyne (and others) can come up with.

The Renaissance Factor is going to be actively "recruiting" new systems, and providing below-cost "RF tech" system defense installations is a logical first step in assimilating skittish prospective members.


tl;dr The GA isn't going to be providing just RMN tech to treaty partners, they're going to be pawning off old RHN tech as Haven upgrades. They're not going to be the only providers of Military Assistance/arms either.

runsforcelery wrote:Thanks for making the point before I had to. Trust me, the GA is only too well aware of the dangers involved in letting their top tier tech out where Bad People can get a gander at it for freebies.

They might --- might --- eventually offer it in an "export version," the way the SLN's done for centuries, but even that's unlikely when they don't even know which rock to turn over looking for the Alignment.


Isn't Erewhon already shipping "Export Versions" of RMN tech? The GA has to put some of their tech out there, if only to prevent someone bright from coming up with something they don't know how to counter. If they let the tech out in measured doses they sort of control the line of thinking by innovators trying to improve on their tech; sort of like Grason's "apprentice Effect" on compensator efficiency.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by pappilon   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:38 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:Isn't Erewhon already shipping "Export Versions" of RMN tech? The GA has to put some of their tech out there, if only to prevent someone bright from coming up with something they don't know how to counter. If they let the tech out in measured doses they sort of control the line of thinking by innovators trying to improve on their tech; sort of like Grason's "apprentice Effect" on compensator efficiency.


(1)Yes to Maya, and that is top of the line The Last War stuff. No FTL, therefore no Apollo, not sure which missiles. but not the most advanced.

(2) Haven has an export Sysdef version already: Moriarty. again no FTL but much better than what anyone else has. Up to them And Manticore to decide which missiles to arm it with for each system wishing to deploy it.

(3) IIRC Maya & Erewhon get Mycroft with a caveat- Manty/GA installation and manning, no one gets a peek at the bells ad whistles behind the curtain. Which would tend to make bribery on the part of the MAlign ... futile.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:28 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Isn't Erewhon already shipping "Export Versions" of RMN tech? The GA has to put some of their tech out there, if only to prevent someone bright from coming up with something they don't know how to counter. If they let the tech out in measured doses they sort of control the line of thinking by innovators trying to improve on their tech; sort of like Grason's "apprentice Effect" on compensator efficiency.


(1)Yes to Maya, and that is top of the line The Last War stuff. No FTL, therefore no Apollo, not sure which missiles. but not the most advanced.

(2) Haven has an export Sysdef version already: Moriarty. again no FTL but much better than what anyone else has. Up to them And Manticore to decide which missiles to arm it with for each system wishing to deploy it.

(3) IIRC Maya & Erewhon get Mycroft with a caveat- Manty/GA installation and manning, no one gets a peek at the bells ad whistles behind the curtain. Which would tend to make bribery on the part of the MAlign ... futile.



You're essentially correct. I would add/clarify only that Maya is the only place Erewhon is exporting last war technology and that it is doing so under conditions of maximum secrecy with the full knowledge of both Haven and Manticore. And I would submit that there is absolutely no one in the entire galaxy with a better reason than Oraville Baregos to keep that tech out of the hands of Old Chicago!


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by pappilon   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:03 am

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runsforcelery wrote:You're essentially correct. I would add/clarify only that Maya is the only place Erewhon is exporting last war technology and that it is doing so under conditions of maximum secrecy with the full knowledge of both Haven and Manticore. And I would submit that there is absolutely no one in the entire galaxy with a better reason than Oraville Baregos to keep that tech out of the hands of Old Chicago!


I did fail to make that point about only Maya. I assumed that when Barregos and Imbesi made their arms deal, Haven was informed. I thought that was before the GA and knowledge/approval of Manticore was rather moot.

Didn't think Maya's need for secrecy was particularly relevant to this discussion :oops: . But yeah, Erewhon is not going to be offering tech directly to anyone else, probably. Better to let Barregos do the negotiating and hide the supply source from prying agents. Of course if negotiations go well between them and SEM, they will end up full Alliance partners and tooling up to produce the latest equipment.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:26 am

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pappilon wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:You're essentially correct. I would add/clarify only that Maya is the only place Erewhon is exporting last war technology and that it is doing so under conditions of maximum secrecy with the full knowledge of both Haven and Manticore. And I would submit that there is absolutely no one in the entire galaxy with a better reason than Oraville Baregos to keep that tech out of the hands of Old Chicago!


I did fail to make that point about only Maya. I assumed that when Barregos and Imbesi made their arms deal, Haven was informed. I thought that was before the GA and knowledge/approval of Manticore was rather moot.

Didn't think Maya's need for secrecy was particularly relevant to this discussion :oops: . But yeah, Erewhon is not going to be offering tech directly to anyone else, probably. Better to let Barregos do the negotiating and hide the supply source from prying agents. Of course if negotiations go well between them and SEM, they will end up full Alliance partners and tooling up to produce the latest equipment.
I doubt Barregos is all that interested in spreading even Mantie-lite tech around. That's his tech edge against the League or any other systems or groups that might view the Maya sector's departure hostilely (or as an opportunity to prey upon them)

Someone in the Grand Alliance may get around to designing and selling export grade missiles, ERMs or Cataphract clones. But any 'true' MDM/DDM inherently contains the 'baffle' which is the key to true multi-drive missiles. That's too big a part of the tech package to want it distributed to an less trustworthy parties. Even Erewhon didn't yet have that tech at the time, mid ceasefire, that they signed a separate peace (and then mutual defense treaty) with the newly reformed Republic of Haven.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by pappilon   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:26 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Someone in the Grand Alliance may get around to designing and selling export grade missiles, ERMs or Cataphract clones. But any 'true' MDM/DDM inherently contains the 'baffle' which is the key to true multi-drive missiles. That's too big a part of the tech package to want it distributed to an less trustworthy parties. Even Erewhon didn't yet have that tech at the time, mid ceasefire, that they signed a separate peace (and then mutual defense treaty) with the newly reformed Republic of Haven.


Not without specific treaties with specific mutual defense clauses. The Andermani have no real desire to arm their potential conquests. Once, that is, they have digested their share of Silesia.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by blackjack217   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:34 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I doubt Barregos is all that interested in spreading even Mantie-lite tech around. That's his tech edge against the League or any other systems or groups that might view the Maya sector's departure hostilely (or as an opportunity to prey upon them)

Someone in the Grand Alliance may get around to designing and selling export grade missiles, ERMs or Cataphract clones. But any 'true' MDM/DDM inherently contains the 'baffle' which is the key to true multi-drive missiles. That's too big a part of the tech package to want it distributed to an less trustworthy parties. Even Erewhon didn't yet have that tech at the time, mid ceasefire, that they signed a separate peace (and then mutual defense treaty) with the newly reformed Republic of Haven.


Keep in mind that the main reason that Erewhon didn't have the MDM tech was that they didn't really see the need for it during the war. If they had asked for the Podnought tech, the Manties probably would have given it to them. They weren't interested in upgrading right this minute. Then High Ridge suddenly got power and things happened.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #3
Post by pappilon   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:38 am

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blackjack217 wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I doubt Barregos is all that interested in spreading even Mantie-lite tech around. That's his tech edge against the League or any other systems or groups that might view the Maya sector's departure hostilely (or as an opportunity to prey upon them)

Someone in the Grand Alliance may get around to designing and selling export grade missiles, ERMs or Cataphract clones. But any 'true' MDM/DDM inherently contains the 'baffle' which is the key to true multi-drive missiles. That's too big a part of the tech package to want it distributed to an less trustworthy parties. Even Erewhon didn't yet have that tech at the time, mid ceasefire, that they signed a separate peace (and then mutual defense treaty) with the newly reformed Republic of Haven.


Keep in mind that the main reason that Erewhon didn't have the MDM tech was that they didn't really see the need for it during the war. If they had asked for the Podnought tech, the Manties probably would have given it to them. They weren't interested in upgrading right this minute. Then High Ridge suddenly got power and things happened.


which is how Shannon Foraker, her witchy admiralness, got aholt of it, and also Barregos and Maya, by extension.
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