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Avalon CL

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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:57 pm

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WLBjork wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Crusiers are supposed to cruise. They are for relatively long duration missions where have to just go places and hang about if nessisary and kill pirates and manage light warships from other places. Relatively fast, relatively well armed and if you put a few of them together you can make life hell for some larger ships. Just ask the Graff Spee.
Commerce raiding and anti-pirate work, fast, tough enough to stand up to most of what smaller nations can field, big enough to put up with rough conditions. Have enough marines and crew to put a prize crew aboard if they catch something worthwhile.
:)

In the Graf Spee's case, the crew were successfully conned into believing there was an aircraft carrier within range as well, it must be pointed out.

True, but that wouldn't have been possible if the Graf Spee hadn't been driven into port on 13 Dec after tangling with 3 British cruisers. If the Graf Spee had beaten them and disappeared into the South Atlantic Langsdorff would have had no reason to scuttle her on 17 Dec.

You could also look at what happened with the Kongo-class BCs Kirishima and Hiei tangled with US cruiser forces (2 CAs and 3 CLs) in Ironbottom sound near Guadalcanal. She was disabled (in part by a hit to her steering machinery from the CA USS San Francisco) and had to be towed away. (The low speed possible when towing resulted in her being caught by US airplanes the next morning and finished off)


Getting swarmed by cruisers can be tough to deal with if you can't quickly whittle down their numbers. And even hits that can't penetrate your main armored raft can still play havoc with your fire control or ability to see and con your ship.
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by robert132   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:26 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:In the Graf Spee's case, the crew were successfully conned into believing there was an aircraft carrier within range as well, it must be pointed out.

True, but that wouldn't have been possible if the Graf Spee hadn't been driven into port on 13 Dec after tangling with 3 British cruisers. If the Graf Spee had beaten them and disappeared into the South Atlantic Langsdorff would have had no reason to scuttle her on 17 Dec.

You could also look at what happened with the Kongo-class BCs Kirishima and Hiei tangled with US cruiser forces (2 CAs and 3 CLs) in Ironbottom sound near Guadalcanal. She was disabled (in part by a hit to her steering machinery from the CA USS San Francisco) and had to be towed away. (The low speed possible when towing resulted in her being caught by US airplanes the next morning and finished off)


Getting swarmed by cruisers can be tough to deal with if you can't quickly whittle down their numbers. And even hits that can't penetrate your main armored raft can still play havoc with your fire control or ability to see and con your ship.[/quote]

Indeed. Even fire from destroyer caliber guns can start fires, penetrate light armor (can't have 8" or 16" plates EVERYWHERE) and so on.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:06 pm

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robert132 wrote:
Indeed. Even fire from destroyer caliber guns can start fires, penetrate light armor (can't have 8" or 16" plates EVERYWHERE) and so on.


Wasn't there an exchange at Guadacanal where a Japanese BB superstructure was essentialy shredded by one of the anti-aircraft CLs? 15 fast firing 6" guns can quickly render everything not under heavy armor useless inside of a few minutes - that is especially dangerous to sensors (radars, rangefinders) and bridge spaces. You may not sink your target, but you mission kill it, or leave it in a state where it s vulnerable to other systems later.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:54 am

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Hi TheEmile,

All but technically correct, ;)

You're quite correct the Brooklyn light cruiser's could do a lot of damage to "all or nothing' armored battleships, but they weren't anti aircraft cruisers with their 15 6" guns.

The 6"/47 [Mk7 or Mk8's?] AA guns in high angle turrets the navy wanted as a follow-on couldn't be built in time; forcing the light cruiser flotilla leader with AA role into using the 5"/38, of which the Atlanta class carried 16 in 8 twin turrets.

Being twice as heavy, the 6" had much better penetration than the lighter 5", albeit the latter had about twice the rate of fire of the 6", though 300+ 5" shells a minute could also be very useful in a surface action.

Later 'CLAA" cruisers carried only 12 5"/38's with other improvements, eventually including proximity fused shells, and better radars were much more effective.

Best wishes always,

L


Theemile wrote:
robert132 wrote:
Indeed. Even fire from destroyer caliber guns can start fires, penetrate light armor (can't have 8" or 16" plates EVERYWHERE) and so on.


Wasn't there an exchange at Guadacanal where a Japanese BB superstructure was essentialy shredded by one of the anti-aircraft CLs? 15 fast firing 6" guns can quickly render everything not under heavy armor useless inside of a few minutes - that is especially dangerous to sensors (radars, rangefinders) and bridge spaces. You may not sink your target, but you mission kill it, or leave it in a state where it s vulnerable to other systems later.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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