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Avalon CL

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Avalon CL
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:33 pm

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The more i look at the avalon the more confused i get.

at a time when every ship class is bigger and heavier then its predecessor it is smaller.

when every other ship below the wall is firing DDMs it is stuck with the LERM.

my understanding of the light cruiser has always been that it was basiclly a destroyer with a bit more tonnage which usually went into better defences, armour, endurance and slightly heavier weapons.

that works perfectly for honoverse right up until the Roland DD arrives on the scene.

*scratches head in puzzlement*
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by munroburton   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:42 pm

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Despite what it says in the Avalon's description, its contemporaries aren't really the Sag-C/Roland, IMO. Those are the Sag-B/Wolfhound.

It isn't currently possible to do a DDM light cruiser because the missiles are too big. A Saganami-C is the smallest ship which can mount two broadsides and the Roland mounts all its launchers in its hammerheads - a peculiar and highly vulnerable arrangement.

A DDM light cruiser would therefore need an asymmetrical broadside or scale up the Roland's vulnerabilities with clustered launchers in each hammerhead - a salvo of perhaps 16-20 compared to a Sag-C's 40 and a Roland's 12.
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:54 pm

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munroburton wrote:Despite what it says in the Avalon's description, its contemporaries aren't really the Sag-C/Roland, IMO. Those are the Sag-B/Wolfhound.

It isn't currently possible to do a DDM light cruiser because the missiles are too big. A Saganami-C is the smallest ship which can mount two broadsides and the Roland mounts all its launchers in its hammerheads - a peculiar and highly vulnerable arrangement.

A DDM light cruiser would therefore need an asymmetrical broadside or scale up the Roland's vulnerabilities with clustered launchers in each hammerhead - a salvo of perhaps 16-20 compared to a Sag-C's 40 and a Roland's 12.



Correct. And at the moment, the extended-range SDM is still far more effective than any missile any adversary light combatant can carry internally. I'm not saying the RMN is building tons of Avalons. I'm saying that for its functions --- which are, specifically, to "cruise" in flag-showing and commerce protection duties, it is a highly capable ship.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:46 pm

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fair enough.

thanks RFC for taking time to discuss this
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:56 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:

Correct. And at the moment, the extended-range SDM is still far more effective than any missile any adversary light combatant can carry internally. I'm not saying the RMN is building tons of Avalons. I'm saying that for its functions --- which are, specifically, to "cruise" in flag-showing and commerce protection duties, it is a highly capable ship.

:D Though House of Steel does say "The class is being
built in large numbers alongside the Rolands and Saganami-Cs"


But back to Dauntless's point about it being smaller, it is still the 2nd largest proper RMN CL we know of after the preceding Valiant-class (I'm discounting the Kamerling-class system control cruiser). Given the automation and other improvements I'm assuming that the slightly smaller Avalon still corrected the short legged and cramped complaints of the larger Valiant while carrying a heavier broadside (and much heavier point defenses).
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Theemile   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:17 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

Correct. And at the moment, the extended-range SDM is still far more effective than any missile any adversary light combatant can carry internally. I'm not saying the RMN is building tons of Avalons. I'm saying that for its functions --- which are, specifically, to "cruise" in flag-showing and commerce protection duties, it is a highly capable ship.

:D Though House of Steel does say "The class is being
built in large numbers alongside the Rolands and Saganami-Cs"


But back to Dauntless's point about it being smaller, it is still the 2nd largest proper RMN CL we know of after the preceding Valiant-class (I'm discounting the Kamerling-class system control cruiser). Given the automation and other improvements I'm assuming that the slightly smaller Avalon still corrected the short legged and cramped complaints of the larger Valiant while carrying a heavier broadside (and much heavier point defenses).


The only foreign Peer combatant we have seen to the Avalon is the Mayan/Erewhonese Marksman CL, with 8 cruiser weight EDM tubes in a broadside, on a hull about 80% larger, and (iirc) fewer defenses. While it is being fielded as a Lt Cruiser, in reality it is a modernized Starknight design with high levels of automation. Going forward, we will probably see further Avalon peer combatants in the Marksman size range, with Cataphract As instead of EDMs or whatever the Havenites come up with.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:43 pm

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weren't marksman only called a CL to con the idiots back on earth?
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Theemile   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:51 pm

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Dauntless wrote:weren't marksman only called a CL to con the idiots back on earth?


Really, yes, But they are closer to a peer combatant to the Avalon, than to the Sag-B or Sag-C.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:17 pm

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Crusiers are supposed to cruise. They are for relatively long duration missions where have to just go places and hang about if nessisary and kill pirates and manage light warships from other places. Relatively fast, relatively well armed and if you put a few of them together you can make life hell for some larger ships. Just ask the Graff Spee.
Commerce raiding and anti-pirate work, fast, tough enough to stand up to most of what smaller nations can field, big enough to put up with rough conditions. Have enough marines and crew to put a prize crew aboard if they catch something worthwhile.
:)
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Re: Avalon CL
Post by WLBjork   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:49 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Crusiers are supposed to cruise. They are for relatively long duration missions where have to just go places and hang about if nessisary and kill pirates and manage light warships from other places. Relatively fast, relatively well armed and if you put a few of them together you can make life hell for some larger ships. Just ask the Graff Spee.
Commerce raiding and anti-pirate work, fast, tough enough to stand up to most of what smaller nations can field, big enough to put up with rough conditions. Have enough marines and crew to put a prize crew aboard if they catch something worthwhile.
:)

In the Graf Spee's case, the crew were successfully conned into believing there was an aircraft carrier within range as well, it must be pointed out.
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