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The logistics of SLN commerce raiding

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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:00 pm

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How exactly are the SLN supposed to gain intelligence on any Manty systems? They can't afford to hyper in, send in drones and wait. Because they don't know if Apollo is headed their way in response. If they come in like Tourville was supposed to do in the BoM, giving themselves an angle to escape, seems that won't work either with insanely long-legged Manty missiles and Manty compensator superiority.

And if they poke their heads out of hyper, then leave, the faster ships of the GA will race to neighboring nodes warning everyone that... "The Brutes are coming! The Brutes are coming!"

How does that work exactly? I admit to being at a loss as to how the SLN will build their dossier on the RMN's dispersed strength without poking their heads in a hornet's nest. Everybody knows what happens when you stir up a nest of hornets.

Which totally must be what LACs feel like.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by phillies   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:25 pm

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cthia wrote:How exactly are the SLN supposed to gain intelligence on any Manty systems? They can't afford to hyper in, send in drones and wait. Because they don't know if Apollo is headed their way in response. If they come in like Tourville was supposed to do in the BoM, giving themselves an angle to escape, seems that won't work either with insanely long-legged Manty missiles and Manty compensator superiority.

And if they poke their heads out of hyper, then leave, the faster ships of the GA will race to neighboring nodes warning everyone that... "The Brutes are coming! The Brutes are coming!"

How does that work exactly? I admit to being at a loss as to how the SLN will build their dossier on the RMN's dispersed strength without poking their heads in a hornet's nest. Everybody knows what happens when you stir up a nest of hornets.

Which totally must be what LACs feel like.


You drop in with a destroyer. You deploy drones at long range and low power, then shut the drives down so they are coasting, or you drop another ship, for example a merchant ship that is actually a legit merchant if you ignore the covert antenna that records the message from the laser pencil beam, and see what is there. You now decide whether or not to attack. Alternatively you wait in the hyper alpha band and pick off merchants the one place they will be close to a known position, namely where they must come out to land. Alternatively, you send in one ship--say a light cruiser, as the attack.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:54 pm

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You drop in with a destroyer. You deploy drones at long range and low power, then shut the drives down so they are coasting, or you drop another ship, for example a merchant ship that is actually a legit merchant if you ignore the covert antenna that records the message from the laser pencil beam, and see what is there. You now decide whether or not to attack. Alternatively you wait in the hyper alpha band and pick off merchants the one place they will be close to a known position, namely where they must come out to land. Alternatively, you send in one ship--say a light cruiser, as the attack.[/quote]


Far easier said than done. First of all, the stealthing of Sollie ships is not all that good compared to the GA.

There are far fewer GA planets than those in the League. And you don't have the Junction. If one ship gets away, you might be chased.

Also, Apollo is not a "system." It's part of an add-on the guidance systems. They might not know there's something there.

And they try something and are dead.

Remember that Manticore used its tech advantage over Haven a real lot and that the Sollies are further behind. And there are a couple of wizardesses names Hemphill and Foraker making plans.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:56 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:You drop in with a destroyer. You deploy drones at long range and low power, then shut the drives down so they are coasting, or you drop another ship, for example a merchant ship that is actually a legit merchant if you ignore the covert antenna that records the message from the laser pencil beam, and see what is there. You now decide whether or not to attack. Alternatively you wait in the hyper alpha band and pick off merchants the one place they will be close to a known position, namely where they must come out to land. Alternatively, you send in one ship--say a light cruiser, as the attack.



Far easier said than done. First of all, the stealthing of Sollie ships is not all that good compared to the GA.

There are far fewer GA planets than those in the League. And you don't have the Junction. If one ship gets away, you might be chased.

Also, Apollo is not a "system." It's part of an add-on the guidance systems. They might not know there's something there.

And they try something and are dead.

Remember that Manticore used its tech advantage over Haven a real lot and that the Sollies are further behind. And there are a couple of wizardesses names Hemphill and Foraker making plans.[/quote]


Another thought. The GA could do the equivalent to the Sollies, particularly with better tech. Why not wait outside the headquarters planets for Sollie raiders to bring in ships and then take the ships and the Sollie cruisers are well.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:08 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Far easier said than done. First of all, the stealthing of Sollie ships is not all that good compared to the GA.

SLN stealth is perfectly adequate.

"Michael Oversteegen frowned ever so slightly as his repeater plot updated with the drones' report. The stealthed cruiser creeping up on Gauntlet's port quarter was much closer than any Peep could have gotten without being detected. On the other hand, she wasn't as close as another Manticoran ship might have managed, which suggested that the RMN's hardware remained superior to the other side's, even if those were Solly-built ships. Unfortunately, the margin of superiority looked like being much thinner than it should have been, and there were three of them."
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm

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Raiding GA systems is going to cost the SLN a lot of damage to themselves and at least a few lost ships (destroyed or to damaged to hyper out and surrrendered/abandoned & self destructed.) Any actual GA system is going to have something in it capable of at least bloodying the nose of a SLN strike force.
That's not to say that a minor system will have a full-up warship in system or anything beyond a detachment of LAC (and current generation RHN LACs can draw blood against SLN ships) and so the raiding force will be able to shoot up the place and not be destroyed. Sustain damage but mostly get out again.

Raiding commerce in neutral systems is another matter. Given both Lacoon I & II, there aren't going to be many Manticore or Haven flagged merchant ships out there until you truly get into areas that are already owned and controlled by either Haven or Manticore.

Jumping a GA warship or small group of them that is patrolling against pirates or SLN (not quite the same thing yet) is mostly going to be a bad job for the SLN unless they can set it up as an ambush. Still probably going to cost them in at least damage with that really long logistics tail not being able to do a lot beyond reload missiles, comsumables and some light repairs.
Killing non-GA merchant ships to damage the economy and trade with and to the GA is going to have a fairly large downside in the long run. Who's ships are they going to destroy or take as prizes (the SL NEEDS those ships as prizes to replace the lost capasity from at least Lacoon I)
Some ship flagged out of New Madrid gets captured out in the Verge and if they weren't actualy going to a GA allied or newly liberated system, someone in New Madrid is going to be pissed with the SLN and the SL buracracy. Are the commerce raiders going to be able to avoid destroying SLN flagged ships? Someting out of Mesa is probably fair game but all those systems not in the League?
Messy, very messy.

Anything like Honor's Q-Ship still in the RMN or RHN fleets( with upgraded weapons suites)? One of those would be a real surprises for a couple of SLN raiders to jump.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:15 pm

cthia
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Brigade XO wrote:Raiding GA systems is going to cost the SLN a lot of damage to themselves and at least a few lost ships (destroyed or to damaged to hyper out and surrrendered/abandoned & self destructed.) Any actual GA system is going to have something in it capable of at least bloodying the nose of a SLN strike force.
That's not to say that a minor system will have a full-up warship in system or anything beyond a detachment of LAC (and current generation RHN LACs can draw blood against SLN ships) and so the raiding force will be able to shoot up the place and not be destroyed. Sustain damage but mostly get out again.

Raiding commerce in neutral systems is another matter. Given both Lacoon I & II, there aren't going to be many Manticore or Haven flagged merchant ships out there until you truly get into areas that are already owned and controlled by either Haven or Manticore.

Jumping a GA warship or small group of them that is patrolling against pirates or SLN (not quite the same thing yet) is mostly going to be a bad job for the SLN unless they can set it up as an ambush. Still probably going to cost them in at least damage with that really long logistics tail not being able to do a lot beyond reload missiles, comsumables and some light repairs.
Killing non-GA merchant ships to damage the economy and trade with and to the GA is going to have a fairly large downside in the long run. Who's ships are they going to destroy or take as prizes (the SL NEEDS those ships as prizes to replace the lost capasity from at least Lacoon I)
Some ship flagged out of New Madrid gets captured out in the Verge and if they weren't actualy going to a GA allied or newly liberated system, someone in New Madrid is going to be pissed with the SLN and the SL buracracy. Are the commerce raiders going to be able to avoid destroying SLN flagged ships? Someting out of Mesa is probably fair game but all those systems not in the League?
Messy, very messy.

Anything like Honor's Q-Ship still in the RMN or RHN fleets( with upgraded weapons suites)? One of those would be a real surprises for a couple of SLN raiders to jump.


Absolutely. And what are they going to do with all of the damaged ships? It's a long way back to League space via backroads, limping and licking their wounds all the way. Are they going to carry their wounded ships with them in makeshift stretchers? err Tractors? Mounting losses and damaged ships with every attack?

When Manticore and Haven were at odds, CIC kept a running tally on each other's ship movements with picket forces, which assisted in having advanced warning that something was about to go down. That was the MO of both navies, and it represents a very real need not available to the League. There is no field of battle marked with the latest movements and current dispersal of enemy ships by the SLN.

If you are going to go that far out of your way to raid commerce in somebody else's back yard, you had better be sure of yourself and bigger and badder than the occupant who may come outside to investigate the noise. Cocked and locked.

The logistics of commerce raiding changes drastically when you leave the convenience of your own sector. When you go away on an extended operation like that you have to pack your bags appropriately and carry enough Band-Aids.

The SLN does not know how to pack for the trip. And even if they did, they don't have the correct attire to wear. Their ships will virtually be naked.

Can they be followed through hyper?

Are their sensor suites comparable?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by WLBjork   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:25 pm

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kzt wrote:SLN stealth is perfectly adequate.

"Michael Oversteegen frowned ever so slightly as his repeater plot updated with the drones' report. The stealthed cruiser creeping up on Gauntlet's port quarter was much closer than any Peep could have gotten without being detected. On the other hand, she wasn't as close as another Manticoran ship might have managed, which suggested that the RMN's hardware remained superior to the other side's, even if those were Solly-built ships. Unfortunately, the margin of superiority looked like being much thinner than it should have been, and there were three of them."


Saganami-A, pre-Manticore-Haven War II. Things have...progressed since then.

Can't remember now if it was a Shadows book or ART, but the RMN was killing drones at a such a range that the SLN would be struggling to detect it's own drones.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:50 pm

cthia
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Immediately after the first attack, the Admiralty and every system possible is going to receive the [YELLOW ALERT] memo to be vigilante. Interior lines of communication is a copper-plated Ransom!

"The Brutish are coming! The Brutish are coming!"

And then, quite a few very special meals can be prepared for uninvited dinner guests when you know they are coming. Even by an understaffed kitchen.

Heaven help the SLN if there are any Jennifer Bellefeuilles hanging out in seemingly weak systems, waiting with slobber drooling down her chin.

"Come on. Come on. You've got me right where I want you!"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:53 am

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cthia wrote:The SLN does not know how to pack for the trip. And even if they did, they don't have the correct attire to wear. Their ships will virtually be naked.


I think Frontier Fleet is more than capable of "packing for the trip." They are used to extended deployments, have a contingency plan for commerce raiding/piracy that they've apparently used more than once.

Battle Fleet probably doesn't have the knowledge or ships for effective commerce raiding, and Adm Crandall was (sarcastically) lauded for proving that BF ships actually could make it to the verge under their own power. :roll:

I suspect that BF formations will disperse to FF bases and take over the intimidation and suppression of client states while sending all FF assets off to the Haven Sector and commerce raiding.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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