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The logistics of SLN commerce raiding

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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:22 am

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Absolutely. Additionally, it is even worse than that once you display it in the Crusher's Holo tank and analyze it.

My original post stated that the SLN has to bring a large enough contingent across the border to support an extended campaign. It is much too great a distance to Havenite space to keep trekking back and forth to League space by horse and buggy (the pace they'll be reduced to, governed by the best possible speed of their weakest links -- damaged combatants.)

Considering the force differential between the two combatants, the SLN is going to have to throw overwhelming odds at a target. Barring their ability to get inside the boxer's longer reach by a lucky translation right smack dab inside their own missile envelope, I can't see them dishing out much damage, and they in turn are going to take heavy losses limited only by the available missiles allocated in the system for a turkey shoot. And I don't see the RMN taking huge losses. That fact is owed to the advantage of their compensators. I can see the RMN taking huge losses of missiles, but then that problem is directly shared by the SLN...

"If we're running out of missiles it is because we have something to shoot at. And if we have something to shoot at. We're also running out of targets!"

The SLN doesn't have the luxury of dividing their large contingent into penny packing strike forces. They have to remain concentrated to have any chance at a successful campaign. But getting reamed while fully concentrated — thereby significantly reducing your force as a result — does not a successful strategy make. And adopting penny packets would get them defeated in detail. I don't see them having any luck at anything but giving the RMN a few black eyes and an annoying fly to swat with "Operation Fly Swatter."

If that large contingent is stumbled upon -- and chances are high being, that the entire Haven sector are eyes and ears for the GA -- the GSN, the RHN, the RMN and even the Andermani have APBs out for League ships. Someone's bound to report seeing a SLN contingent. Maybe even Bachfish will show up again with a sighting.

And if the GA discovers the Dunce Caps' base of operations. Lights. Camera...

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage




I shortstopped the ordnance of a Missile Collier passing through.




Theemile wrote:
n7axw wrote:Hummm... I hope the RMN isn't as full of its own elan as posters on this thread apparently are... :lol:

Don

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Oh the SLN will get a victory or 2, especially if they completely overwhelm the defenders by sheer numbers. A well planned attack with the right hardware can blow away a convoy’s defenses, or shred the ready forces defending a translation point. But when you are trading a couple BCs for a handful of LACs or DDs, it quickly becomes expensive, especially when you require a massive fleet train of parts, consumables, and support resources to keep up the raids. And after a few such attacks, the GA, with the inside communications loop, will beef up whatever was vulnerable before and make such attacks even more expensive. And the SLN may even “win” some there – but is it truly a victory, when you lose more tons of combat power than your opponents? You may be able to afford 2:1, but 5:1 or 10:1 repeatedly?

No, for the reasons listed by those above, the strategy is ultimately a fool’s errand and doomed to fail.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Castenea   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:34 pm

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cthia wrote:Absolutely. Additionally, it is even worse than that once you display it in the Crusher's Holo tank and analyze it.

My original post stated that the SLN has to bring a large enough contingent across the border to support an extended campaign. It is much too great a distance to Havenite space to keep trekking back and forth to League space by horse and buggy (the pace they'll be reduced to, governed by the best possible speed of their weakest links -- damaged combatants.)

...........

No, for the reasons listed by those above, the strategy is ultimately a fool’s errand and doomed to fail.
[/quote]One other oh so minor issue: Where is this raiding force going to have it's forward operating base at?
Meyers? Already in GA hands
Smoking Frog? Somehow I doubt Barregos and Rozak will be amenable.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:38 pm

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Castenea wrote:
cthia wrote:Absolutely. Additionally, it is even worse than that once you display it in the Crusher's Holo tank and analyze it.

My original post stated that the SLN has to bring a large enough contingent across the border to support an extended campaign. It is much too great a distance to Havenite space to keep trekking back and forth to League space by horse and buggy (the pace they'll be reduced to, governed by the best possible speed of their weakest links -- damaged combatants.)

...........

No, for the reasons listed by those above, the strategy is ultimately a fool’s errand and doomed to fail.
One other oh so minor issue: Where is this raiding force going to have it's forward operating base at?
Meyers? Already in GA hands
Smoking Frog? Somehow I doubt Barregos and Rozak will be amenable.[/quote]

Sarducci? you know, the other end of the Wlaclawycz Sarducci hyper bridge? Seems like another one bites the dust after Sir Scotty's visit.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by robert132   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:04 pm

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cthia wrote:
They'll end up getting their chops busted before their commerce raiding strategy can gain any momentum.

The GA has a tried and true playbook and they can use the canned plays all month long before having to get fancy.

The SLN are the barbarians when it comes to strategy and tactics.

The dinosaurs wouldn't fall for their tactics.


"Don't get cocky" - Han Solo

After reading Himself's snippets I wouldn't be too certain that the GA will have it ALL their own way all of the time. Apparently there are at least a few senior officers in the SLN who can rub two brain cells together and get a spark.

Remember, the finest swordsman in the world isn't afraid of the 2nd finest ... he's more afraid of the wet behind the ears know-nothing novice because the novice may do something unexpectly from shear stupidity and ignorance and accidentally get through the swordsman's guard and kill him.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:36 pm

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robert132 wrote:
cthia wrote:
They'll end up getting their chops busted before their commerce raiding strategy can gain any momentum.

The GA has a tried and true playbook and they can use the canned plays all month long before having to get fancy.

The SLN are the barbarians when it comes to strategy and tactics.

The dinosaurs wouldn't fall for their tactics.


"Don't get cocky" - Han Solo

After reading Himself's snippets I wouldn't be too certain that the GA will have it ALL their own way all of the time. Apparently there are at least a few senior officers in the SLN who can rub two brain cells together and get a spark.

Remember, the finest swordsman in the world isn't afraid of the 2nd finest ... he's more afraid of the wet behind the ears know-nothing novice because the novice may do something unexpectly from shear stupidity and ignorance and accidentally get through the swordsman's guard and kill him.


Of course they'll have some victories. Coming home with some merchant ships is great. Just remember that the GA has a lot more merchant ships than the Sollies have cruisers.


Add to that the fact that some of the merchants are armed, that a lot of places will take a long time to get to and that uses up supplies and that the GA has better and faster communications, and they are still up the creek. Add to that the obvious fact that it would allow the GA to raid as freely and you could have a small fleet including personnel to get the Sollie ships home as well as targeting of the planets used to replenish the ships and there will be a real lot of bad times for the Sollies.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Nyssa   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:52 pm

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As far as predicting the SLN moves is concerned, there are some significant differences. The Havenite had a very good idea of the Manties goals, the forces available (numbers of ships, armaments and commanders), and the information the Manties were using to formulate their plans. In regards to the Solies none of this is true. Decisions will be made for political reasons as much as military, how many ships of what classes and when they will be available is anyone's guess, and the Solies have no information on targets. With no reliable info there is no way to determine what they will end up doing.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:15 pm

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Castenea wrote:One other oh so minor issue: Where is this raiding force going to have it's forward operating base at?
Meyers? Already in GA hands
Smoking Frog? Somehow I doubt Barregos and Rozak will be amenable.

What Peep base did the Peeps use for their commerce raiding in Silesia?
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:51 pm

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kzt wrote:
Castenea wrote:One other oh so minor issue: Where is this raiding force going to have it's forward operating base at?
Meyers? Already in GA hands
Smoking Frog? Somehow I doubt Barregos and Rozak will be amenable.

What Peep base did the Peeps use for their commerce raiding in Silesia?

We're not told, that I can remember. They just talk repeatedly about detached ships returning to "the rendezvous". That might be a system where their fleet train is parked as a forward base, or it might be a different rendezvous each time they mention it. But even that cruiser / BC force probably needs some fleet train accompanying it.

And of course we know much later, when they were looking to mousetrap the detachment at Marsh as the end of the ceasefire, they and their attached fleet train used an uninhabited star system for their base. Wouldn't be surprised if the earlier commerce raiders did the same (off screen).
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:12 pm

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That was what I thought. So you fill a couple of freighters with missiles, spare parts, etc and send them out to meet the fleet elements. Or, since you are hopefully blowing unarmed freighters out of space, you don't bother. It's not like they will have a high ammo usage. They go until they run short on something critical Or get all blowed up.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by n7axw   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:44 pm

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As I recall Kingsford's basic strategy, it's summed up by the old adage, "hit em where they ain't." If a SLN task group finds a system protected by GA forces, go elsewhere. He is trying to tie up as many alliance hulls as possible in commerce protection, taking advantage of the reality that the GA only has so many ships and every ship tied up in commerce protection is not in mischief elsewhere.

The last thing he wants are battles where the SLN is over matched by its opponents.

Will it work? Hard to say, but it is a better strategy than anything else the League has come up with so far.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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