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Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2

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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by saber964   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:51 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Its not that the Sollies can't do anything to counter the GA technical strengths, the developed tactics and the (often decades) of true combat experience, it is that they are being forced to improvise and see what works. Sending 80-90 BC sized warships to someplace that seems to have also been provided with a smaller RMN contingent should give them a victory even if it means leaving out the part about how many ships they loose plus crew.
Of course, the GA isn't invincible and stuff is going to happen. A few ships get mousetraped, people get caught in situations they can't get out of, the other side does things that are compleatly unexpected (even if it costs them big time) and they have victories.

I seem to recall a story about some people in the US Navy mounting torpedoes on a PBY to make it an anti-ship weapon. They did use PBYs with depth charges against subs but the story was in the Pacific and was against a warship. The British "mined" an approch road to London against the expected invasion early in the war by doing things like rigging a house on a slope of a hill to be detonated and cover the road (and expected tanks) with gasoline.

Sending an SLN task group into a system and dumping a lot of missles on ballistic course to both intersect with anticipated movements of locally stationed GA warships AND any orbital service and opeations facilities (including space stations) would give them a "win" if the objective is to destroy things. They might even catch a defending ship that way or with missles dropped behind in the path of pursuit as in Shadow of Victory.

SLN WILL come up with things. How effective after the 1st try is another matter. Part of the backstory in Babalon 5 was that Sheriden killed a Mimbari Crusier by deploying nuclear weapons as mines and based the trap on the Mimbari vastly superior ability to come out of hyperspace with essentialy pinpoint accuracy so they popped in on the Earth Alliance ship when it began to move....right into the mines. The Mimbari considered that a dishonorable trick but .....well, it was war and we are human:)

It will be interesting to see what individual SLN people come up with.



Your talking about the battle of Midway. It was a night attack by PBY's on the IJN transport force IIRC they hit a tanker (the only airdropped torpedo to hit a ship by the USN). During the Solomon's campaign the PBY's became night bombers unofficially known as the Black Cats. They conducted anti-shipping and barge patrols. The units were very successful sinking a total of 17 transports and 250+ Dihatsu landing craft and barges and damaging 3 destroyers 45 transports and 200+ landing craft and barges.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:08 am

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Randomiser wrote:Yep, Hit and Run is not going to be a very happy experience for the SLN whenever they actually encounter RMN (IMN?) warships. For the simple reason that even the DDs generally hit from longer range and run faster than whatever the SLN have got to send into dispersed targets. The Sollies can drive the RMN out of a system (temporarily) by using overwhelming force. But, unless they get lucky or have very good intelligence, they can't trap RMN forces and they are going to lose a lot of ships.


I am expecting several raiding forces to hit systems defended only by LACs; I wonder whether any SLN survivors of such forces will admit that they were routed by "mere" LACs.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:14 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Yep, Hit and Run is not going to be a very happy experience for the SLN whenever they actually encounter RMN (IMN?) warships. For the simple reason that even the DDs generally hit from longer range and run faster than whatever the SLN have got to send into dispersed targets. The Sollies can drive the RMN out of a system (temporarily) by using overwhelming force. But, unless they get lucky or have very good intelligence, they can't trap RMN forces and they are going to lose a lot of ships.


I am expecting several raiding forces to hit systems defended only by LACs; I wonder whether any SLN survivors of such forces will admit that they were routed by "mere" LACs.


On one of the other threads there was a listing of the ships in the 10th Fleet. Ships could be sent to every planet in the Quadrant. Even Pequod could get a CLAC and a few screening ships. Sending Sollie raiders in could be very tricky.

Haven could have ships covering its planets. They could even use older ones since they would not be facing capital ships.

And while that is happening, a few really nasty task forces can really disrupt trade. Even better they could do it on the busiest routes.

And, to be really nasty, they could disrupt the trade to Terra. Destroy the orbital structures in the solar system and really reduce what they have.

Doing a bit of blockade would also prevent money going on to the navy. And task forces could destroy major shipyards. Remember the damage from Oyster Bay. That could be revisited, in a more civilized fashion like letting workers escape, with all workshops and ships in process being destroyed, followed with the destruction of all orbital structures. Starting from scratch, it would take a lot of years to restructure.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:48 pm

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munroburton wrote:Ah, come on. If you know Babylon 5, you should know the Minbari had Earth's balls firmly gripped despite Sheridan's fluke. The cruiser he killed was the only Minbari capital ship EarthForce managed to kill during that entire war. Earth only survived because the Minbari surrendered at the threshold of total victory.

Whilst a similar outcome is what the SL needs right now, I doubt the GA will surrender because it turns out the Sollies are humans too! :o :lol:


The Mimbari did have Earth in a vice- exactly as they thought they should. Mimbar had artificial gravity for it's ships, much better stealth, proplusion and tec with the tactics that maximized it's advantages. Earth had to have have rotation sements on the ships for the living quarters and couldn't lock-up Mimbari ships with their sensor suites. Mimbar had been in space as a powerhouse for 1,000 years and, other than the Volrlons (who nobody could touch or understand) they seem to have been basking in the victory in the earlier shadow war though they didn't stagnate.
On the other hand, Sheridan improvised based on what he had and what they knew-from direct observation along with reports) about Mimbari capabilities and tactics. He set a trap and was riding the bait of that trap. At that point it was fairly clear that the Mimbari Crusier was waiting for them to move so they could drop in to finish the last of the small force.

There have to be creative and intelegent people in the SLN who, particularly at the point of desperation, can improvise weapons use and tactics to not play to RMN/RHN strengths. The commerce raiding is one practical approach. Go after the logistics and economy, don't try to take on the GAs warships in a stand-up fight. Ambush. Use misdirection. Make them spread their forces to cover a lot of potential targets and see if you can catch a warship at a significant disadvantage. Heck, throw together a Q-ship and make it a happless freighter from some system or Star Nation not in the SLN/GA or allied camps and have it being "attacked" and greviously damaged by some FF ships- which run away when the RMN shows up. When the RMN ship closes to give aid, launch a crapload (that's a technical term) of missiles and hope you cripple them. Headquaters and the propaganda bureau will write up a suitable glowing report of the golorious victory, leaving out the sneaky ambush part.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by kzt   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:05 pm

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The other option is to hyper out on top of the security element on a wormhole. Nobody can stay at GQ for weeks, much less months.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by phillies   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:05 am

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kzt wrote:The other option is to hyper out on top of the security element on a wormhole. Nobody can stay at GQ for weeks, much less months.


You need around three crews, two of whom are not on duty at any time. Perhaps four crews. Yes, you need a lot of life support,etc., but the problems only arise if everyone has to be active all the time. For an SLN SD, this would mean a crew of 24,000 instead of 6000, but only if it was someplace where it had to be at battle stations all the time.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:59 am

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phillies wrote:
kzt wrote:The other option is to hyper out on top of the security element on a wormhole. Nobody can stay at GQ for weeks, much less months.


You need around three crews, two of whom are not on duty at any time. Perhaps four crews. Yes, you need a lot of life support,etc., but the problems only arise if everyone has to be active all the time. For an SLN SD, this would mean a crew of 24,000 instead of 6000, but only if it was someplace where it had to be at battle stations all the time.

Sadly the major constraint on the RMN size is manpower. So they don't have 2 or 3 extra crews per ship. And I'm not at all certain that is enough people.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:41 am

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Randomiser wrote:Yep, Hit and Run is not going to be a very happy experience for the SLN whenever they actually encounter RMN (IMN?) warships. For the simple reason that even the DDs generally hit from longer range and run faster than whatever the SLN have got to send into dispersed targets. The Sollies can drive the RMN out of a system (temporarily) by using overwhelming force. But, unless they get lucky or have very good intelligence, they can't trap RMN forces and they are going to lose a lot of ships.


If RFC is following the practice of the Her Britannic Majesty's Royal Navy, even during the 72 years of the King-Emperor/Queen-Empress, the Naval Service remained the Royal Navy.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by Eagleeye   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:03 am

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kzt wrote:Sadly the major constraint on the RMN size is manpower. So they don't have 2 or 3 extra crews per ship. And I'm not at all certain that is enough people.


I wonder how the workload is parted on a modern DD. Take a Roland with its crew of 68 (iIrc). In my opinion (and if there are 4 duty-shifts) normal operations would then need only 17 people; and you should be able to effectively fight the ship with, say, 2 shifts - that are 34 people. So, you could reduce the crew down to that barebone - at least for a limited (and short! - no more than a few weeks or so) time. But if that would be necessary at all, the GA would already be royally screwed.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:53 am

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Eagleeye wrote:I wonder how the workload is parted on a modern DD. Take a Roland with its crew of 68 (iIrc). In my opinion (and if there are 4 duty-shifts) normal operations would then need only 17 people; and you should be able to effectively fight the ship with, say, 2 shifts - that are 34 people. So, you could reduce the crew down to that barebone - at least for a limited (and short! - no more than a few weeks or so) time. But if that would be necessary at all, the GA would already be royally screwed.

The average USN sailor at sea has a 108 hour workweek. In peacetime.
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