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Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by n7axw   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:46 am

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Wow! I'd forgotten how "voluminous" a Lyonheart post can be... :lol:

Seriously, it's good to exchange thoughts with you again, Lyonheart. RFC's post and yours in particular raise the question about how much impact League propaganda has off Terra. One can almost gain the impression that for the Mandarins, their focus is narrowed to Terra... or maybe Old Chicago!

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:47 am

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n7axw wrote:Wow! I'd forgotten how "voluminous" a Lyonheart post can be... :lol:

Seriously, it's good to exchange thoughts with you again, Lyonheart. RFC's post and yours in particular raise the question about how much impact League propaganda has off Terra. One can almost gain the impression that for the Mandarins, their focus is narrowed to Terra... or maybe Old Chicago!

Don

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Don, your and Lyonheart's posts bring up a key dynamic for the post UH Honorverse. Do the Core Worlds believe that the GA committed an EEE violation on Mesa or some other entity? As has been posted by His Celeryness, the question won't likely have any definitive answer leading into the next story arc. Which answer seems most likely will be a product of aggregate experience with elements of the GA.

Assuming that Beowulf's leadership believes Mike (highly likely given the treecats), Core worlds will base their opinions of their fundamental trust of Beowulf's integrity. That and their direct experiences with Manticore and Haven. That suggests the Core worlds will be a seriously varied mixed bag of opinions over the next couple of decades.

The Verge and Fringe are far more likely to give the GA the benefit of the doubt. They have received the SEM's investments over the centuries. They have received the RMN's protection from pirates and to a large extent the People's Republic of Haven. I would add that even the citizens of Haven benefited from the SEM's stubborn refusal to be politely swallowed up by the Peeps.

What I am still trying to feel my way around is the Shell worlds. They are members of the SL but do not have the accumulated wealth of millennia as many Core worlds can brag. Manticore never really invested as heavily there as they did in their Verge and Fringe neighborhood. These systems just got their membership relatively recently but the long awaited benefits of membership are now evaporated into the morning mist.....thanks to the GA and Manticore especially. I suspect that the Shell worlds will also have a varied menu of opinions, but leaning towards antipathy in aggregate.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by BobG   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:30 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
They got pretty much bupkis in the way of actionable information. They've got Honor demanding Filaretta's surrender and pitilessly enumerating his capabilities. Then they have com footage of her showing him a sh --- crapload of missile pods. (They don't have anything showing them the actual pods.) Then they have a tactical display that shows Filaretta launching and a delay of several seconds before the first GA missile drives appear on it (thus demonstrating who fired first). And then they have the tac data of a single GA salvo wrecking 11th Fleet from one end to the other. :shock:

Aside from that, they've got nothing. Of course, what they did get was ample to convince just about anyone that they really, really don't want to provoke a GA wall of battle, and Honor's dissection of Filaretta's missile load out (and his fire control capabilities) should also suggest that (a) the GA learned a little something after crawling around Crandall's surrendered SDs and (b) the GA's sensor capability and (by implication) drone stealth is one hell of a lot better than the SLN's. Neither of those conclusions should have been much of a stretch for anyone with a brain (I realize we are talking about Solarian analysts, but still . . . .) to figure out on his own. And indicating to the SLN's personnel just how much they want to avoid finding themselves the target of a GA podnought (and all of the morale and aggressive implications that carries with it) has to be considered a Good Thing from the GA's perspective. They want any SL officer they face to already be defeated inside his own head before the first shot is fired. . . and actually seeing what happened to Filaretta ought to go quite a ways in that direction, don't you think? :twisted:

This brings up a question I've been wondering about for the Battle of Manticore 2. Why were there any SLN survivors, let alone 80 or so undamanged ones? I had assumed that the Sollies would fire more than one salvo of missiles, the ones after the first from their tubes, and that the GA would respond in kind.

If that were true, the first wave of Mantie missiles would have probably destroyed or disabled every one it targetted, and the Havenite missiles would have done the same. Target co-ordination between the two forces would have been "challenging", given their recent alliance.

So what actually happened, as far as BoM 2 occurred? There was clearly enough time for all sides to fire multiple salvos. If the GA had fired multiple salvos, and not aborted the later ones, then there shouldn't have been any SLN forces that weren't destroyed.

Confused.
-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by BobG   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:33 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
As has been posted by His Celeryness, the question won't likely have any definitive answer leading into the next story arc.

His Celeryness? That's a new one. :)

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by n7axw   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:03 pm

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BobG wrote:runsforcelery wrote:
They got pretty much bupkis in the way of actionable information. They've got Honor demanding Filaretta's surrender and pitilessly enumerating his capabilities. Then they have com footage of her showing him a sh --- crapload of missile pods. (They don't have anything showing them the actual pods.) Then they have a tactical display that shows Filaretta launching and a delay of several seconds before the first GA missile drives appear on it (thus demonstrating who fired first). And then they have the tac data of a single GA salvo wrecking 11th Fleet from one end to the other. :shock:

Aside from that, they've got nothing. Of course, what they did get was ample to convince just about anyone that they really, really don't want to provoke a GA wall of battle, and Honor's dissection of Filaretta's missile load out (and his fire control capabilities) should also suggest that (a) the GA learned a little something after crawling around Crandall's surrendered SDs and (b) the GA's sensor capability and (by implication) drone stealth is one hell of a lot better than the SLN's. Neither of those conclusions should have been much of a stretch for anyone with a brain (I realize we are talking about Solarian analysts, but still . . . .) to figure out on his own. And indicating to the SLN's personnel just how much they want to avoid finding themselves the target of a GA podnought (and all of the morale and aggressive implications that carries with it) has to be considered a Good Thing from the GA's perspective. They want any SL officer they face to already be defeated inside his own head before the first shot is fired. . . and actually seeing what happened to Filaretta ought to go quite a ways in that direction, don't you think? :twisted:

This brings up a question I've been wondering about for the Battle of Manticore 2. Why were there any SLN survivors, let alone 80 or so undamanged ones? I had assumed that the Sollies would fire more than one salvo of missiles, the ones after the first from their tubes, and that the GA would respond in kind.

If that were true, the first wave of Mantie missiles would have probably destroyed or disabled every one it targetted, and the Havenite missiles would have done the same. Target co-ordination between the two forces would have been "challenging", given their recent alliance.

So what actually happened, as far as BoM 2 occurred? There was clearly enough time for all sides to fire multiple salvos. If the GA had fired multiple salvos, and not aborted the later ones, then there shouldn't have been any SLN forces that weren't destroyed.

Confused.
-- Bob G


There are at least three critical differences here. The first is that the GA salvo is controlled an equiped with much better penetration aids. The SLN pods were launched in a massive uncontrolled salvo. The second is that GA defenses are designed to cope with a missile rich environment and the SLN's were not. Third, the laser heads on GA missiles were much more effective.

I presume that the GA's follow up salvos were aborted because surviving SLN units were surrendering real quick and the object was not to simply massacre them once there was no further resistance.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by BobG   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:41 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
They got pretty much bupkis in the way of actionable information. They've got Honor demanding Filaretta's surrender and pitilessly enumerating his capabilities. Then they have com footage of her showing him a sh --- crapload of missile pods. (They don't have anything showing them the actual pods.) Then they have a tactical display that shows Filaretta launching and a delay of several seconds before the first GA missile drives appear on it (thus demonstrating who fired first). And then they have the tac data of a single GA salvo wrecking 11th Fleet from one end to the other. :shock:

Aside from that, they've got nothing. Of course, what they did get was ample to convince just about anyone that they really, really don't want to provoke a GA wall of battle, and Honor's dissection of Filaretta's missile load out (and his fire control capabilities) should also suggest that (a) the GA learned a little something after crawling around Crandall's surrendered SDs and (b) the GA's sensor capability and (by implication) drone stealth is one hell of a lot better than the SLN's. Neither of those conclusions should have been much of a stretch for anyone with a brain (I realize we are talking about Solarian analysts, but still . . . .) to figure out on his own. And indicating to the SLN's personnel just how much they want to avoid finding themselves the target of a GA podnought (and all of the morale and aggressive implications that carries with it) has to be considered a Good Thing from the GA's perspective. They want any SL officer they face to already be defeated inside his own head before the first shot is fired. . . and actually seeing what happened to Filaretta ought to go quite a ways in that direction, don't you think? :twisted:

I replied
This brings up a question I've been wondering about for the Battle of Manticore 2. Why were there any SLN survivors, let alone 80 or so undamanged ones? I had assumed that the Sollies would fire more than one salvo of missiles, the ones after the first from their tubes, and that the GA would respond in kind.

If that were true, the first wave of Mantie missiles would have probably destroyed or disabled every one it targetted, and the Havenite missiles would have done the same. Target co-ordination between the two forces would have been "challenging", given their recent alliance.

So what actually happened, as far as BoM 2 occurred? There was clearly enough time for all sides to fire multiple salvos. If the GA had fired multiple salvos, and not aborted the later ones, then there shouldn't have been any SLN forces that weren't destroyed.

Confused.
-- Bob G

n7axw replied
There are at least three critical differences here. The first is that the GA salvo is controlled an equiped with much better penetration aids. The SLN pods were launched in a massive uncontrolled salvo. The second is that GA defenses are designed to cope with a missile rich environment and the SLN's were not. Third, the laser heads on GA missiles were much more effective.

I presume that the GA's follow up salvos were aborted because surviving SLN units were surrendering real quick and the object was not to simply massacre them once there was no further resistance.

Don

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I am aware of all of that, and agree with it. My question really was that if the Sollies were firing salvos at the GA, would the GA stop firing salvos at them before the first salvo hit the Sollie ships? The Sollies couldn't abort their missiles once they reached the speed-of-light x distance restriction, so even if they did surrender, a number of salvos would continue to attempt to reach the GA. And beyond that, how long did it take for Filerata's deputy to take control and surrender? I rather strongly imagine a lot of confusion (as the MA intended), and I am presuming that (s)he didn't figure out the situation and order the missiles to self-destruct before the first salvo they reached the GA. And I'm certainly not within orders of magnitude of HH's tactical capability, but when the enemy has salvos of missiles being launched against me, I'm prone to shooting back.

At the time the Sollies (the MA really, I guess) opened fire on the GA, the duration of missile flight was several minutes, meaning both sides could have multiple salvos on the way. If the Sollies surrendered after the GA's first salvo hit, then both sides would have second/third/... salvos in flight at 15 to 40 second intervals.

I'm surprised that if the Sollies didn't surrender until after both sides first salvos hit, that there would be any Sollies left because (1) I wouldn't stop shooting until they surrendered (2) Once the first salvo hit, Sollie command and control would go to hell again so surrendering would be difficult (3) I, as GA commander, wouldn't stop shooting until they surrendered or were destroyed.

But that's just me.

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by pappilon   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:59 pm

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BobG wrote:I am aware of all of that, and agree with it. My question really was that if the Sollies were firing salvos at the GA, would the GA stop firing salvos at them before the first salvo hit the Sollie ships? The Sollies couldn't abort their missiles once they reached the speed-of-light x distance restriction, so even if they did surrender, a number of salvos would continue to attempt to reach the GA. And beyond that, how long did it take for Filerata's deputy to take control and surrender? I rather strongly imagine a lot of confusion (as the MA intended), and I am presuming that (s)he didn't figure out the situation and order the missiles to self-destruct before the first salvo they reached the GA. And I'm certainly not within orders of magnitude of HH's tactical capability, but when the enemy has salvos of missiles being launched against me, I'm prone to shooting back.

At the time the Sollies (the MA really, I guess) opened fire on the GA, the duration of missile flight was several minutes, meaning both sides could have multiple salvos on the way. If the Sollies surrendered after the GA's first salvo hit, then both sides would have second/third/... salvos in flight at 15 to 40 second intervals.

I'm surprised that if the Sollies didn't surrender until after both sides first salvos hit, that there would be any Sollies left because (1) I wouldn't stop shooting until they surrendered (2) Once the first salvo hit, Sollie command and control would go to hell again so surrendering would be difficult (3) I, as GA commander, wouldn't stop shooting until they surrendered or were destroyed.

But that's just me.

-- Bob G


They did not fire salvos. There was some discussion immediately-after-the-fact on Honor's bridge. Consensus was "everyone" sets up a last desperate all heck has broke loose and outr only shot is
to fire all of our guns at once
. (omitting the blast off into space lyric)) The tac officer on Filareta's command deck entered the code to basically flush and fire ALL pods simultaneously. Remember it was an Onion nano assassination to guarantee that Filareta did not get a chance to confirm that Manpower was paying him for certain decisions.

But IIRC [dubious at best] the or some of the, other ships fired several seconds after all the pods went off, Kind of OOPS now what, and then the brain kicks in and makes the wrong decision. I am assuming some captains did not make the wrong decision and held fire. The ROE was to fire on any ship that fired first, and with really, really good AI and fire control, those ships were not targeted, so survived.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:10 pm

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A distinction needs to be made here, I think.

The pods were fired in an uncontrolled salvo all at once. But then, 13 seconds later, the Solly SDs began firing from their tubes in salvos. I presume those were controlled.

Don

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Theemile   » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:43 pm

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n7axw wrote:A distinction needs to be made here, I think.

The pods were fired in an uncontrolled salvo all at once. But then, 13 seconds later, the Solly SDs began firing from their tubes in salvos. I presume those were controlled.

Don

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Sollie SDs have a salvo rate of 1 every 45 seconds or more from internal tubes. (Maybe even 1 minute).

I doubt many had a chance to fire 2 tube launches.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by pappilon   » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:33 am

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Theemile wrote:
n7axw wrote:A distinction needs to be made here, I think.

The pods were fired in an uncontrolled salvo all at once. But then, 13 seconds later, the Solly SDs began firing from their tubes in salvos. I presume those were controlled.

Don

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Sollie SDs have a salvo rate of 1 every 45 seconds or more from internal tubes. (Maybe even 1 minute).

I doubt many had a chance to fire 2 tube launches.


Yes, My post was more than a tad unclear on that point. You are correct.

Remember, They don't want to destroy the entire fleet if possible. Between not remembering exactly and being too lazy to get up, find the book and the appropriate section, I can only recall that Honor ordered return fire,not a specific fire plan. The entire fleet or even an entire battle group has only been destroyed once and that was Zavala at Saltash. Honor probably targeted most of the SDs and screen with her first salvo. I'm sure the survivors quickly killed their wedges.
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