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Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:35 pm

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kzt wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
In order to engage in deficit spending, someone has to be willing to lend. Potential lenders sort of require the borrower to survive long enough to repay their debts. I doubt the transstellars are deaf, dumb or blind enough buy SL debt going forward. I doubt individual investors will want enough of those bonds to finance much of an improved war machine. If the SL federalllies begin to use force, even fewer entities will buy SL bonds.

Short of confiscation, the SL federal government has run out of sources of money or will very shortly.

So who was lending money to the USSR, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in 1944?


Who pray tell will accept the federalies made up money? They simply promise to pay their vendors and then what happens when they don't have enough money in the bank to fund the transfer? Or when a bank refuses to acknowledge the central banks transfers of funds that did not exist prior to the transfer?

Creating money from nothing only works when there is some opacity regarding what is backing the created specie. If the Federal government is asserting funds will coming in from their clients, private sources can verify what is coming in. If the Federal government is simply creating funds from nothing, that too will come out.

So in order to actually spend funds they don't already have in sufficient amounts to do diddly squat, they have to borrow. There will soon be a quickly diminishing supply of lenders available to them.

Local systems would refuse the accept made up money to protect their citizens from inflation that would inevitably follow accepting fantasy cash.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by WLBjork   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:57 pm

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This was intended as a reply to kzt, but pappilon has done a pretty good job of covering things. there's a few points I have expanded on.
pappilon wrote:(1)Are we forgetting that the GA is the lesser of the SL's enemies? who knows what other little Operation Januses the MAlign is cooking up. They are already inside the SLN sabotaging BF from the inside. They want the SL to disintegrate as fast s the GA does.


Neither the MAlign or GA are operating in a vacuum. The MAligns plans are reliant on the GAs actions, but the GA doesn't know much about the MAligns plans in detail.

(2) Build software to do ... what, exactly? Yes they have good computers with excellent processing speed. No idea what the parameters are for their software because they have never survived a battle to get info home for analysis. Crap for battle experience, even worse crap for battle simulations. WE have the advantage of third person omniscience, BF does not. Build software to handle the shown capabilities of the GA only to find out OOPS there is another 20% they held in reserve.


More importantly, does the SLN have easy access to someone capable of a fast turn-around on this? They've never had to do this in living memory, so it's highly unlikely they have someone at the correct level.

(3) Haven could not replicate the RMN weapons with working copies and tech manuals available, couldn't crack the miniaturization. Still can't crack the FTL (?). Bing was quoting published articles speculating that even gross FTL would require the physical size of an SD.


On the other hand, Haven did take a massive tech transfer from the League towards the middle/end of the First Haven-Manticore War which boosted their capabilities tremendously. I think that, with the exception of a few pieces of reverse engineered technology and items specific to the conflict with Manticore, the SLs technology is better.

(4) Granted to know it exists and does work is half the battle. Barring any miraculous serendipity, making functional prototypes is years away. Weaponizing it takes longer. Potential is nothing until you feed it something. There several iterations of a dead horse laying around here, (A) SLN needs a brand new Doctrine, Not something easly created, especially with an enemy within to push it in ... less than optimal directions, or stall it entirely. (B) Until you have the doctrine you cannot design software for the hardware in the obsolete ship designs, much less in more survivable hulls which (C) you can't even design, much less build without (A) the doctrine. (D) Then you start developing munitions - DDMs MDMs pods more point defense fewer energy mounts.


It's no good merely knowing something can be done - it's also necessary to know a method (doesn't have to be the same one) to replicate the effect. I would draw people's attention to the 1632 short story "Canst Though Send The Lightnings?". They knew it could be done, but no-one could work out how it could be done. Someone had to read an article to find out how it was done.

(5) Now you're just getting started yet how much RMN construction was cut short because new weapons systems demanded new designs? Yeah great you mobilize your potential, tool up to produce 5,000 hulls then build half the hulls only to find they are obsolete and new designs are on the way, so finish the hulls and retool for the new designs. While you are in a shooting war with the meanest fleet with the absolutely most battle hardened crews and admirals in your universe.


And those designs will be years down the line. The RMN was evaluating (honestly) and producing new SD designs every few months. The SLN is almost certainly in the "an SD lasts a century" mindset. They may just be designing a next gen (for them!) design, but that's obsolete.

(6) Then you are not operating in this universe but in the universe of RFC. What the US did, the USSR did, Britain did is worthless in the face of what RFC will allow the SL to do.


The SLN will get it's victories. These will almost certainly be minor and pointless compared to what the GA will be doing in return.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:44 pm

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WLBjork wrote:This was intended as a reply to kzt, but pappilon has done a pretty good job of covering things. there's a few points I have expanded on.
pappilon wrote:(1)Are we forgetting that the GA is the lesser of the SL's enemies? who knows what other little Operation Januses the MAlign is cooking up. They are already inside the SLN sabotaging BF from the inside. They want the SL to disintegrate as fast s the GA does.


A few points about the issues brought up.

1. MAlign will not cause huge losses at this point. They don't have a really large navy and are far more likely to do some strategic attacks. Small scale that might prevent the Sollies from getting some rare elements.

2. Actually it is far more likely that the GA knows more about the Sollies than the other way around. Beowulf obviously worked hard to know what was going on. Chances are they have a lot of agents in key places. And in a huge bureaucracy it is very hard to keep secrets.

3. Strategically the Ga has a huge advantage. They control the Junction and most wormholes and they are far smaller. It will be far more difficult for the Sollies to get to key areas and to get away. Putting in convoys with cruisers can help protect commerce AND the Sollies are far more vulnerable. Do you want to bet that the Beowulfans don't know a real lot of trade routes? And if a lot of ships are taken, that limits trade even more. Wait outside a whole group of the really rich planets and they can pick up a huge number of ships. They can even be nice by dropping off the sailors on other Sollie planets.

4. Remember that Crandall's SD's were wiped out by regular cruisers, not heavy ships. One Nike class heavy cruiser could take out or damage a small task force. Remember also the Byng's ship was taken down by destroyers. Doing raids could be very costly.

5. And remember that it will take a real lot of time for a raiding force to get to most places aside in the GA except for Beowulf and the Talbott Cluster. Sending a fleet out to capture some merchant ships when it takes months of travel is a real logistic nightmare. You could take a half dozen ships and have huge waste. And all it might take is one ship getting away to give warnings.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:39 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:2. Actually it is far more likely that the GA knows more about the Sollies than the other way around. Beowulf obviously worked hard to know what was going on. Chances are they have a lot of agents in key places. And in a huge bureaucracy it is very hard to keep secrets.

3. ...Do you want to bet that the Beowulfans don't know a real lot of trade routes? ...


The Manticoran Merchant Marine probably has more information on trade routes and "key places" than Beowulf does. That information is probably going to get a bit stale since the MMM was recalled by Lacoon 1 but initially it is going to be more comprehensive.

ldwechsler wrote:4. Remember that Crandall's SD's were wiped out by regular cruisers, not heavy ships. ...


Crandall's TF was devastated by Apollo pods in System defense mode and light speed control links. and, IIRC Scotty Tremaine was in tactical command of the Missiles from BC(L) HMS Nike and his squadron mates with Nike Class BC(L)s. The cruisers only provided the fire control links, not any other capability; it could have been a wing or three of LACs providing the fire control.

ldwechsler wrote:...Remember also the Byng's ship was taken down by destroyers. Doing raids could be very costly.


Byng was done in by MK-23 pods (stepped down to DDMs) dispensed and controlled by a squadron of BC(P)s.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:44 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:2. Actually it is far more likely that the GA knows more about the Sollies than the other way around. Beowulf obviously worked hard to know what was going on. Chances are they have a lot of agents in key places. And in a huge bureaucracy it is very hard to keep secrets.

3. ...Do you want to bet that the Beowulfans don't know a real lot of trade routes? ...


The Manticoran Merchant Marine probably has more information on trade routes and "key places" than Beowulf does. That information is probably going to get a bit stale since the MMM was recalled by Lacoon 1 but initially it is going to be more comprehensive.

ldwechsler wrote:4. Remember that Crandall's SD's were wiped out by regular cruisers, not heavy ships. ...


Crandall's TF was devastated by Apollo pods in System defense mode and light speed control links. and, IIRC Scotty Tremaine was in tactical command of the Missiles from BC(L) HMS Nike and his squadron mates with Nike Class BC(L)s. The cruisers only provided the fire control links, not any other capability; it could have been a wing or three of LACs providing the fire control.

ldwechsler wrote:...Remember also the Byng's ship was taken down by destroyers. Doing raids could be very costly.


Byng was done in by MK-23 pods (stepped down to DDMs) dispensed and controlled by a squadron of BC(P)s.



Sounds good but not perfect. The Manticoran merchant ships will know which lines were good when THEY were running things. That could change a lot. And Beowulf would be better for inside info.

Yes, it was the pods carried by cruisers and destroyers. Which they could certainly tow when escorting merchant ships.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by pappilon   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:15 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
A few points about the issues brought up.

1. MAlign will not cause huge losses at this point. They don't have a really large navy and are far more likely to do some strategic attacks. Small scale that might prevent the Sollies from getting some rare elements.
[/quote]

MAlign does not have to battle SLN. Gweon is a MAlign plant inside the Dodecahedron or whatever the SLN is calling is massive complex overlooking Lake Michigan. The MAlign can do more damage to BF from there than 10 battles where BF units re totally destroyed. Pushing for commerce raids against Haven? They invented commerce raiding. Have we forgotten Honor's adventures in Silesia?
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by kzt   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:36 pm

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pappilon wrote:[
MAlign does not have to battle SLN. Gweon is a MAlign plant inside the Dodecahedron or whatever the SLN is calling is massive complex overlooking Lake Michigan. The MAlign can do more damage to BF from there than 10 battles where BF units re totally destroyed. Pushing for commerce raids against Haven? They invented commerce raiding. Have we forgotten Honor's adventures in Silesia?

Manticore had a long term doctrine of BC raids. Which tended to go horribly horribly wrong against Haven.

I'll also note that the peep raids brought in the IAN as a combatant against Haven, so I'd mark that as going disasteriously wrong too.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:52 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Yes, it was the pods carried by cruisers and destroyers. Which they could certainly tow when escorting merchant ships.


No, none of the pods were carried by the ships that controlled them in Spindle (vs Crandall.) the pods were pre-placed in a system defense role by the freighters that brought them.

The BC(P)s that exterminated Adm Byng didn't need to tow pods as they carry the pods internally.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by pappilon   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:56 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
A few points about the issues brought up.

1. MAlign will not cause huge losses at this point. They don't have a really large navy and are far more likely to do some strategic attacks. Small scale that might prevent the Sollies from getting some rare elements.


Two different wars on two different fronts. Talking the need for new battle doctrine: Gweon is there inside manipulating BF for the advantage of MAlign- to cause it to implode. GA gets the advantage but here The enemy of my enemy is my bigger enemy. The SL is the sideshow, the thing to get past as quickly as possible for the ultimate face-off between GA & MAlign.

2. Actually it is far more likely that the GA knows more about the Sollies than the other way around. Beowulf obviously worked hard to know what was going on. Chances are they have a lot of agents in key places. And in a huge bureaucracy it is very hard to keep secrets.

3. Strategically the Ga has a huge advantage. They control the Junction and most wormholes and they are far smaller. It will be far more difficult for the Sollies to get to key areas and to get away. Putting in convoys with cruisers can help protect commerce AND the Sollies are far more vulnerable. Do you want to bet that the Beowulfans don't know a real lot of trade routes? And if a lot of ships are taken, that limits trade even more. Wait outside a whole group of the really rich planets and they can pick up a huge number of ships. They can even be nice by dropping off the sailors on other Sollie planets.


Yes the different types of warfare. (1) Commerce raiding under Lacoon 1&2 will be difficult at best for SLN. With Lacoon 2 all shipping routs are disrupted and it will take months to reestablish them. (2) Commerce raiding is a secondary tactic for the GA task groups, Sail into a system, cause BF, FF units to surrender or be destroyed, then capture commercial shipping. May not bother to destroy infrastructure unless the system is defended. Bette to make friends thaan enemies.

4. Remember that Crandall's SD's were wiped out by regular cruisers, not heavy ships. One Nike class heavy cruiser could take out or damage a small task force. Remember also the Byng's ship was taken down by destroyers. Doing raids could be very costly.

5. And remember that it will take a real lot of time for a raiding force to get to most places aside in the GA except for Beowulf and the Talbott Cluster. Sending a fleet out to capture some merchant ships when it takes months of travel is a real logistic nightmare. You could take a half dozen ships and have huge waste. And all it might take is one ship getting away to give warnings.


All true but OTOH MAlign is now vested in Renaissance Factor which will only be activated in the chaos of the disintegration of the Solaran league. Their Strategy is maximum effect with minimum effort hence Operation Janus. They will use their operators within the SLN to sabotage any and all efforts to transform BF and FF into forces capable of withstanding the GA. Again they may not be operating in a vacuum or at cross purposes, but still independently with different endgames.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by kzt   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:15 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:The BC(P)s that exterminated Adm Byng didn't need to tow pods as they carry the pods internally.

There were no BC(p)s present.
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