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Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"

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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Theemile   » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:29 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Most of Manticore's tech breakthroughs (FTL comms, MDM/DDM, ERMs, bow/buckler walls, improved grav lenses, and presumably improved compensators) came from better manipulation of gravitational technology. (Not sure if the microfusion power plants are also grav based)

The Solarian League may be able to copy or replicate some of these, but what other areas might they make breakthroughs in?

Manticore improved the effective power of their laser heads by improving the grav lensing. But the SLN might make different breakthroughs there. They probably can't improve the raw fusion warhead yield much without simply making it larger (grav pinch direct fusion warheads are already extremely efficient) but they might be desperate enough to switch to anti-mater for the boom behind the laser rods. Still I doubt it, RFC hasn't don't that yet in the Honorverse and the safety risks are insanely high. Better to simply build a bigger missile to carry a larger fusion warhead. But better lasing rods certainly seem like a possibility - doing a better job of focusing the received energy. A laserhead with significantly more damage or standoff range could be a nasty surprise.

Breakthroughs in ship based energy weapons seem somewhat less useful, at least offensively. Nothing bigger than a LAC seems to make it into energy range of an enemy anymore. But improvements that, say, doubled or triple the range of PDLCs could be a defensive game-changer. Similarly any improvement that let you cycle PDLC emitters quicker would up your defensive firepower.

Sensor or stealth improvements are another non-grav based potential andvantage (well some of stealth - hiding your low power wedge is grav based)

Certainly ECM, missile sensors, missile 'smarts' can be a big help.

Better physical armor, though I'm not sure how big a breakthrough you can do there.

And I'm sure you all can think of other areas, beyond where Manticore's tech flowed, where the League might make a surprise field leveler; even without RFC blindsiding us with a total paradigm breaking tech (teleporters, tachion based weapons, etc).


Microfusion reactors are grav pinched. Small ship fusion reactors are laser containment, which Madeline the grav pinched microfusion reactors a big deal.

As for the rest, I'm expecting some esoteric tech - something we cannot predict because we have not seen it in the Honorverse. David Mentioned that the SLN actively avoided paradigm shifting technologies because they would invalidate their own fleet, as well as their opponent's. If I was guiding research in the SLN, I would start in those folders, because I would know their contents would most likely surprise the RMN.
Last edited by Theemile on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Maldorian   » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:04 pm

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The point of my starting question was, that weapon trade is always political!

Like I said: some of the navies in the league maybe only exist to support their local weapon industry.

The officers of battle fleet maybe in deep sleep and also their weapon deliverers, but I don´t think that count for all the smaller navies and their weapon deliverers. After
all: Battle fleet maybe only have to look around and find much better ships at that navy, better sensors at another one, better missles at number three....

Maybe they can get closer to the GA without researching by themself, because others have already do it.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:55 pm

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Maldorian wrote:The officers of battle fleet maybe in deep sleep and also their weapon deliverers, but I don´t think that count for all the smaller navies and their weapon deliverers. After all: Battle fleet maybe only have to look around and find much better ships at that navy, better sensors at another one, better missles at number three....


Speculation has been that Beowulf's SDF has some Manticoran tech. They've at least paid attention to what was going on a mere Wormhole away. That same speculation has decided that the SLN is deliberately kept unaware of the advances built into BSDF ships (and other hardware) and that BSDF are backwardly compatible with SLN tech so advances won't be revealed during any joint exercises with BF.

I would go further and propose that any system with a substantial SDF would follow similar precautions in keeping their ships backwards compatible with SLN hardware.

Any system with better hardware will have hidden all or most of it from SLN inspectors/advisors and be the least likely to share with the SLN and most likely to secede from the League.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:52 am

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Most of Manticore's tech breakthroughs (FTL comms, MDM/DDM, ERMs, bow/buckler walls, improved grav lenses, and presumably improved compensators) came from better manipulation of gravitational technology. (Not sure if the microfusion power plants are also grav based)

The Solarian League may be able to copy or replicate some of these, but what other areas might they make breakthroughs in?

Manticore improved the effective power of their laser heads by improving the grav lensing. But the SLN might make different breakthroughs there. They probably can't improve the raw fusion warhead yield much without simply making it larger (grav pinch direct fusion warheads are already extremely efficient) but they might be desperate enough to switch to anti-mater for the boom behind the laser rods. Still I doubt it, RFC hasn't don't that yet in the Honorverse and the safety risks are insanely high. Better to simply build a bigger missile to carry a larger fusion warhead. But better lasing rods certainly seem like a possibility - doing a better job of focusing the received energy. A laserhead with significantly more damage or standoff range could be a nasty surprise.

Breakthroughs in ship based energy weapons seem somewhat less useful, at least offensively. Nothing bigger than a LAC seems to make it into energy range of an enemy anymore. But improvements that, say, doubled or triple the range of PDLCs could be a defensive game-changer. Similarly any improvement that let you cycle PDLC emitters quicker would up your defensive firepower.

Sensor or stealth improvements are another non-grav based potential andvantage (well some of stealth - hiding your low power wedge is grav based)

Certainly ECM, missile sensors, missile 'smarts' can be a big help.

Better physical armor, though I'm not sure how big a breakthrough you can do there.

And I'm sure you all can think of other areas, beyond where Manticore's tech flowed, where the League might make a surprise field leveler; even without RFC blindsiding us with a total paradigm breaking tech (teleporters, tachion based weapons, etc).

Microfusion reactors are grav pinched. Small ship fusion reactors are laser containment, which Madeline the grav pinched microfusion reactors a big deal.

As for the rest, I'm expecting some esoteric tech - something we cannot predict because we have not seen it in the Honorverse. David Mentioned that the SLN actively avoided paradigm shifting technologies because they would invalidate their own fleet, as well as their opponent's. If I was guiding research in the SLN, I would start in those folders, because I would know their contents would most likely surprise the RMN.


I doubt the SLN will go that way. They are ossified. They've been on the mushroom diet...kept in the dark and fed manure...for centuries. We have seen admirals refuse to believe that the Manties could be far ahead of them.

The naval officers who have screwed up for so long have a vested interest in not giving way. Can you imagine an 80 year old admiral admitting that he's been wrong for a half century?

They will try to capture some tech from GA ships. The problem is, of course, that the smaller ships have more limited tech. As far as I can tell, they have not taken any capital ships.

Note also that Manty LACs use fission. That's a whole science that has probably gone out of use, certainly in the major worlds. Fusion, as RFC has it, is far simpler and safer.

We have no idea how the electronics work but you can bet the Sollies are way behind.

Beowulf has some secrets and always has. I have not seen any characters in the Solarian League who seem to know anything about that navy.

There are too many new technologies to make a fast jump.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Castenea   » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:23 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Beowulf has some secrets and always has. I have not seen any characters in the Solarian League who seem to know anything about that navy.

There are too many new technologies to make a fast jump.

The problems that the Sollies are going to have with the BSDF and to a lesser extent other SDFs, is how much they know that just is not so. IIRC there was a line about how SLN intel knows what the BSDF has. We have also gotten text eve that that statement was in error, just not how it is in error. I believe that despite the occasional analyst who actually has a clue or two, all that has gotten out of their intelligence apparat is an official line of the SLN has the latest and best tech.

This has started to change with the RMN showing what it can do, but the new information is still having troubles getting past willfully blind gatekeepers.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:37 am

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The real issue for the League is not tech but systemic corruption. It has far more resources and people than its opponents, but is utterly unable to marshal those resources for the task at hand. As the situation in the verge continues to deteriorate the revenue stream available for the government shrinks. As trade declines due to Manty interference and control of the junctions, the revenue stream shrinks.

To change that the League needs drastic action, action that is not politically possible, at least not in the time remaining before the edifice collapses. In a way, it's like the final days of Rome.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by Duckk   » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:41 am

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This is from David the last time the topic of Beowulf with Manty tech came up:

***

In response to the question about the Beowulf Self-Defense Force, no, it was not secretly outfitted with Manticoran war-fighting technology prior to the current crisis. It has very good technology — rather better than the SLN's, for example — but it had no need to build Manticoran-level hardware and both Beowulf and Manticore had a vested interest in not poking the sleeping giant and getting the League fired up to acquire really modern weaponry. There's no way that Beowulf, as firmly integrated into the League as it was, could have realistically expected to upgrade its hardware across the board without someone in the SLN noticing, even if they did install "inhibitors." I'm not saying that it might not have been possible to get away with it; I'm saying that Beowulf wouldn't have made the attempt. If it was worth concealing in the first place, the probability that they could get away with hiding it would have been poor, and an effort to conceal it might only have succeeded in drawing unwanted attention to it. But, to be frank, they didn't need it. The only people who had it were close friends of theirs, and to some extent Beowulf shared the SLN's motives for not spreading that hardware across the galaxy and destabilizing the tactical model which had supported the League's military supremacy for so long. That's changed now, of course, and Beowulf's industrial base is good enough that it can begin putting Manticoran designs into production very quickly, although production levels would still be lower than those Manticore had attained before Oyster Bay. At the present time, however, Beowulf does not have, for example, the internal capacity to fire MDMs or Manticoran inertial compensators or Manticoran FTL com capacity. Some of that can be retrofitted as "strap-ons" and all of it can be put into production locally, but for right now refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:16 am

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n7axw wrote:The real issue for the League is not tech but systemic corruption. It has far more resources and people than its opponents, but is utterly unable to marshal those resources for the task at hand. As the situation in the verge continues to deteriorate the revenue stream available for the government shrinks. As trade declines due to Manty interference and control of the junctions, the revenue stream shrinks.

To change that the League needs drastic action, action that is not politically possible, at least not in the time remaining before the edifice collapses. In a way, it's like the final days of Rome.

Don

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Agreed. The SL has lived off of taxing trade and dominating developing star nations like some sort of massive leech. The leech acts to deter other forms of leech and the member systems of the SL have successfully kept their leeches away from the systems that matter.

Now, natural selection has bred a predator to the SL leech. The leech is starving and needs to feed. The only suitable food source are the member systems. Those systems are not eager to let themselves be fed upon by what the SL has morphed into.

The contrast is obvious. The GA is a symbiote that fosters mutual defense and flourishes with local autonomy of member systems. The SL is strong central government that controls and oppresses many of those in its charge. While members are free from control for now, that freedom comes at the price of being parasitic predators to those unable to defend themselves.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:01 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
n7axw wrote:The real issue for the League is not tech but systemic corruption. It has far more resources and people than its opponents, but is utterly unable to marshal those resources for the task at hand. As the situation in the verge continues to deteriorate the revenue stream available for the government shrinks. As trade declines due to Manty interference and control of the junctions, the revenue stream shrinks.

To change that the League needs drastic action, action that is not politically possible, at least not in the time remaining before the edifice collapses. In a way, it's like the final days of Rome.

Don

-


Agreed. The SL has lived off of taxing trade and dominating developing star nations like some sort of massive leech. The leech acts to deter other forms of leech and the member systems of the SL have successfully kept their leeches away from the systems that matter.

Now, natural selection has bred a predator to the SL leech. The leech is starving and needs to feed. The only suitable food source are the member systems. Those systems are not eager to let themselves be fed upon by what the SL has morphed into.

The contrast is obvious. The GA is a symbiote that fosters mutual defense and flourishes with local autonomy of member systems. The SL is strong central government that controls and oppresses many of those in its charge. While members are free from control for now, that freedom comes at the price of being parasitic predators to those unable to defend themselves.


Even worse, a planet like Beowulf really has gone out of its way to develop its tech and can freely get some from Manticore. It would not take much to make any attempt at intrusion very costly.

Also, it would be far more difficult to overlook and Eridani Edict violation if one should happen. The Frontier Fleet often bombards planets but considers it "police actions."

Doing it to one of the founding planets would not be so easily overlooked and it could bring retribution.

Again, the best possible one would be to destroy the entire satellite environment around Earth including every naval installation in the Solar System. It is very hard to start from scratch.

Most of the other planets that might secede are not in Beowulf's position however. There things could get a bit tricky even if the ending is inevitable.
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Re: Solarian warships/tech : "What is possible!"
Post by kzt   » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:39 pm

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The SL recognizes a government in exile and then intervene to suppress the rebellion. With massive KE strikes.
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