Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Crevan, pappilon and 8 guests

Missile Pods

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Missile Pods
Post by Fireflair   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:13 am

Fireflair
Captain of the List

Posts: 410
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:23 pm

As I'm doing my most recent rereading of the series, I've started wondering about missile pods. Specifically why the SLN didn't know about them from the get go. When Honor is thinking about the pods, she notes that they've been around a long time. They're actually a standard feature that most people just tend to neglect due to their shorter range.

They don't have the benefit of shipboard grav launchers or the ship's momentum to get them going. And they're considered stationary, though obviously you can tractor some of to a ship. The other difficulty with them is having enough shipboard fire control links to handle the much larger initial salvo.

The RMN didn't really start using them until they got better launchers, thanks to their new tech but the pods had existed before they began using them full up. I'd have thought the SLN would have had no problem adjusting to the expectation of pod launched missiles. The PRH, as it turns out, adjust quickly to pod warfare. Not only that but they accepted the notion of the SD(P) without any trouble either, of course they saw it in action against them and had the reality beaten into them quick enough.

I guess the long and short of this thought is: Why did everyone have such difficulty with the idea of pods being used in warfare? Especially the SLN.
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by ThisName1   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:39 am

ThisName1
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:52 am

I'd say for the SLN it was the tech imbalance. Manticore can make their missiles go farther, faster and hit harder then the SLN's so they just couldn't get it through their heads that such powerful missiles could fit in a pod small enough to be used in ship to ship combat in large enough numbers.

Its also indicative of the sheer mental laziness and arrogance of SLN flag officers. From their standards missile pods are old tech, not useful in modern ship to ship combat. So why even consider the idea, they "knew" without a shadow of a doubt that they have the best tech around and some podunk navy wasn't going to beat them.

And if I remember correctly they were the only ones to have a real problem with believing pods were useful. After manticore started using them haven picked up the idea fairy quickly, and the andermani's sawed missile pods in half and bolted then to their ships if I remember correctly.
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by George J. Smith   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:31 am

George J. Smith
Captain of the List

Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

The standard method of warfare by all navies -prior to the changes wrought by the Haven sector wars- was to close in to energy range and beat the hell out of each other until one of the combatants was defeated or withdrew.

Missiles launched either internally or from pods were seen as something that might just knock out a few sensors or drive nodes as the combatants closed in on each other.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by munroburton   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:57 am

munroburton
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

The reason has to do with the relatively recent evolution of missile technology.

Those old pods were from the pre-sidewall era, when ships could be hit by "contact" nukes. Once sidewalls came along, missiles were rendered a lot less lethal and energy weapons came to dominate, mostly unchanged, for centuries.

The new laser-heads were only developed in the late 1800s. House of Steel claims the Andermani were the first to deploy them, in 1872. The first RMN capital ship designed with laserheads in mind was the King William SD, commissioned in 1877. Bear in mind that the Scientist SD was probably 25 years old by this point, if not older.

Those laserheads rendered the old autocannon point defense systems obsolete. However, the damage output remained relatively low compared to shipboard energy weapons - well into the first Manticore-Haven war. Pod alpha strikes were devastating, but generally major battles still ended with energy range combat(or retreats).

It wasn't until Operation Buttercup, in 1915, that missiles truly and publicly took over as the king of space combat. Up until that point, White Haven and his Havenite opposites were still trying to reach energy range with a decisive tonnage edge.

By 1920ish, the thousand-year old SLN, operating a 100-year review policy, was simply too slow, stagnant and arrogant to take notice that their entire capital fleet had become completely obsolete in the last five years, despite that decline beginning fifty years ago.
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by Theemile   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:02 am

Theemile
Admiral

Posts: 2750
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

munroburton wrote:The reason has to do with the relatively recent evolution of missile technology.

Those old pods were from the pre-sidewall era, when ships could be hit by "contact" nukes. Once sidewalls came along, missiles were rendered a lot less lethal and energy weapons came to dominate, mostly unchanged, for centuries.

The new laser-heads were only developed in the late 1800s. House of Steel claims the Andermani were the first to deploy them, in 1872. The first RMN capital ship designed with laserheads in mind was the King William SD, commissioned in 1877. Bear in mind that the Scientist SD was probably 25 years old by this point, if not older.

Those laserheads rendered the old autocannon point defense systems obsolete. However, the damage output remained relatively low compared to shipboard energy weapons - well into the first Manticore-Haven war. Pod alpha strikes were devastating, but generally major battles still ended with energy range combat(or retreats).

It wasn't until Operation Buttercup, in 1915, that missiles truly and publicly took over as the king of space combat. Up until that point, White Haven and his Havenite opposites were still trying to reach energy range with a decisive tonnage edge.

By 1920ish, the thousand-year old SLN, operating a 100-year review policy, was simply too slow, stagnant and arrogant to take notice that their entire capital fleet had become completely obsolete in the last five years, despite that decline beginning fifty years ago.


Nit.. the Scientist design was ~200 years old when the laserhead was developed, there were already thousands of such ships built.

The original development on the Laserhead was done in the SL, and in SLN tests, it failed to penetrate sidewalls. The company who did the R&D went bankrupt after more research, and was purchased by the Andermani, who completed the research and made it feasible. Manticore heard about the science, and started independent research, developing their own laserhead tech shortly after the Andermani. The SL was one of the last major navies to purchase the technology and field it, because they "knew" it would not work.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by munroburton   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:48 am

munroburton
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

Theemile wrote:Nit.. the Scientist design was ~200 years old when the laserhead was developed, there were already thousands of such ships built.

The original development on the Laserhead was done in the SL, and in SLN tests, it failed to penetrate sidewalls. The company who did the R&D went bankrupt after more research, and was purchased by the Andermani, who completed the research and made it feasible. Manticore heard about the science, and started independent research, developing their own laserhead tech shortly after the Andermani. The SL was one of the last major navies to purchase the technology and field it, because they "knew" it would not work.


Are they really that old? :shock: I don't remember any textev pinning it down. I've been guessing, based on RFC's 100-year rule comment and examining the evolutionary progress of Manticore's earlier waller classes in HoS, that the Scientist is a late 1700s/early 1800s design with the follow-up, slightly modified, Vega class arriving recently(ie, the late 1800s/early 1900s).

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/202/1

That pearl also explains the SLN at one time built dreadnoughts instead of SDs, but later made the switch to SDs only. When they made that switch, they also disposed of most of the dreadnoughts in the Reserve.

HoS also provides another reason to doubt a Scientist older than ~175 years. In the description for the Manticore-class SD, it says:

The original design requirements for the Star Kingdom’s first superdreadnought called for a ship “fit to engage and defeat any ship-of-the-wall now in commission or under construction,” and for their time, their design proved more than sufficient in that regard. With greatly improved active defenses and twice the graser broadside of the Ad Astra-class, the Manticore-class was a powerful, modern unit that compared favorably to even the most advanced Solarian design of the day.


Manticore-class superdreadnought
Mass: 6,515,500 tons
Broadside: 22M, 18L, 24G, 8ET, 12CM, 24PD
Service Life: 1742–1905

Scientist-class superdreadnought
Mass: ~6,800,000 tons
Broadside: 32M, 24L, 26G, 16CM, 32PD

It's very close, but I wouldn't call that "compared favourably". That suggests the Scientist is actually the immediate successor to the "Solarian design of the day" which the Manticore-class was measured against.
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by Nyssa   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:23 am

Nyssa
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:16 pm

This thread brings to mind the sinking of HMS Repulse and HMS Prince Of Wales on December. 10, 1941. The Japanese had been using carrier planes for several years against the Chinese, and the British dismissed the threat because the Japanese had a second rate Navy, they could not possibly harm a BRITISH battleship. A lot of people died that day of arogance.
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by Theemile   » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:19 pm

Theemile
Admiral

Posts: 2750
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

munroburton wrote:
Theemile wrote:Nit.. the Scientist design was ~200 years old when the laserhead was developed, there were already thousands of such ships built.

The original development on the Laserhead was done in the SL, and in SLN tests, it failed to penetrate sidewalls. The company who did the R&D went bankrupt after more research, and was purchased by the Andermani, who completed the research and made it feasible. Manticore heard about the science, and started independent research, developing their own laserhead tech shortly after the Andermani. The SL was one of the last major navies to purchase the technology and field it, because they "knew" it would not work.


Are they really that old? :shock: I don't remember any textev pinning it down. I've been guessing, based on RFC's 100-year rule comment and examining the evolutionary progress of Manticore's earlier waller classes in HoS, that the Scientist is a late 1700s/early 1800s design with the follow-up, slightly modified, Vega class arriving recently(ie, the late 1800s/early 1900s).

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/202/1

That pearl also explains the SLN at one time built dreadnoughts instead of SDs, but later made the switch to SDs only. When they made that switch, they also disposed of most of the dreadnoughts in the Reserve.

HoS also provides another reason to doubt a Scientist older than ~175 years. In the description for the Manticore-class SD, it says:

The original design requirements for the Star Kingdom’s first superdreadnought called for a ship “fit to engage and defeat any ship-of-the-wall now in commission or under construction,” and for their time, their design proved more than sufficient in that regard. With greatly improved active defenses and twice the graser broadside of the Ad Astra-class, the Manticore-class was a powerful, modern unit that compared favorably to even the most advanced Solarian design of the day.


Manticore-class superdreadnought
Mass: 6,515,500 tons
Broadside: 22M, 18L, 24G, 8ET, 12CM, 24PD
Service Life: 1742–1905

Scientist-class superdreadnought
Mass: ~6,800,000 tons
Broadside: 32M, 24L, 26G, 16CM, 32PD

It's very close, but I wouldn't call that "compared favourably". That suggests the Scientist is actually the immediate successor to the "Solarian design of the day" which the Manticore-class was measured against.


I'm not certain where the quote is, but the Scientist design is ~ 250 years old currently.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by Annachie   » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:57 am

Annachie
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1634
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:36 pm

Given the slowness that the SLN progresses with such things, it might have taken 100 years to get the Scientist from design to comission.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
Top
Re: Missile Pods
Post by Maldorian   » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:40 am

Maldorian
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:54 am

This thread brings to mind the sinking of HMS Repulse and HMS Prince Of Wales on December. 10, 1941. The Japanese had been using carrier planes for several years against the Chinese, and the British dismissed the threat because the Japanese had a second rate Navy, they could not possibly harm a BRITISH battleship. A lot of people died that day of arogance.


If I remember correct, they had a carrier with them, but the carrier was damaged near south africa. The stupidity of the british admirality was, to send the battleships without their air cover.
Top

Return to Honorverse