Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Joat42, Theemile and 66 guests

High Ridge and Co blew their chance.

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by jdtinIA   » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:33 pm

jdtinIA
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:21 pm

Rereadibg the series. Just got done with HAE. Question : Why wasn't Honor Courts-Martialed for failure to perform her duties?
If the RMN's Military Code is anything like the US UCMJ they had a perfect chance to get rid of her and they blew it. The would have been an inquest into the loss of "Wayfarer"
Honor failed to remove certain personnel who were to be taken to the nearest RMN facility.
I refer to Stilman (sp?) and his crew of attempted deserters.

Admittedly nobody cared about them, but it would have given the Admiralty a perfect excuse to throw the book at Honor and Cardones. For that matter tell Honor that if she leaves the RMN quietly and does not get involved with the GSN they will overlook her exec's failure, and hey maybe find him a nice cruiser or something.
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by Duckk   » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:43 pm

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

Why, exactly, would the book get thrown at her? It's Caparelli and Baroness Morncreek's Admiralty, not Janacek's and High Ridge's. It's wartime. The rules tend to get thrown out or relaxed unless you've spectacularly screwed up. And since Honor did save Klaus Hauptman, his daughter, and his ship, she had a very strong partisan in her corner outside of the Admiralty.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:26 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8317
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

jdtinIA wrote:Rereadibg the series. Just got done with HAE. Question : Why wasn't Honor Courts-Martialed for failure to perform her duties?
If the RMN's Military Code is anything like the US UCMJ they had a perfect chance to get rid of her and they blew it. The would have been an inquest into the loss of "Wayfarer"
Honor failed to remove certain personnel who were to be taken to the nearest RMN facility.
I refer to Stilman (sp?) and his crew of attempted deserters.
To attempt to throw the book at Honor I think you'd have to prove several things.

That it was safe and in accordance with standing orders to remove dangerous prisoners from the brig and take them to a civilian passenger liner.

That the prisoners were in fact still alive after the initial heavy damage Wayfarer suffered.

We know that after Master at Arms Thomas and his senior assistant died none of the surviving police force members (with their chain of command apparently in tatters) knew to check the status of the prisoners - but it's not clear that had they checked on them they would have done more than ensure they were still safely secured in the brig.
The remaining police presumably believed that the prisoners had been checked or had died. And in a mostly voluntary self-reporting partial evacuation nobody was tasked to sweep the ship for people who might be trapped with non-functional comms -- like they might have if fully abandoning the ship while not immediately under fire.

And by the time the ship was finally evacuated, after her death ride, everyone in the brig was quite dead and presumably the final sweeps for trapped or incapacitated personnel, as the lifeboats arrived to shuttle the few combined survivors to the passenger liner, would have noted that fact (but probably not when that hit to the brig occurred)


There was clearly a breakdown due to the casualties of the fight with the first ambushers but it's not clear its something you can plausibly court marshal Honor over (despite a Captain being ultimately responsible for everything that happens on her ship)



And of course High Ridge and co weren't yet running the government or admiralty, so their ability to force a court marshal would have been pretty limited after Honor returned from Silesia -- basically just grandstanding in Lords or to the 'faxes.
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by Fireflair   » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:54 pm

Fireflair
Captain of the List

Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:23 pm

Essentially it's been covered. The admiralty wouldn't have initiated court-martial proceedings against Honor for what happened. High Ridge and Co weren't in control at this time and the admiralty who is in charge likes her. She's in general good odor due to her successes and she has Klaus in her corner now, for saving his bacon.

But the reason I added my two cents is that even if the political sorts could have pressured the Navy into going after her, the pretense would have been entirely too weak to require her to leave the service or get her exec. They might, might, have gotten her to be beached on half pay for a while. However they wouldn't have been able to do anything about her going back to the GSN.

As for her exec, there wouldn't have been any reason to go after him. He wasn't on the liberal radar in any fashion, never mind the way Honor is. They might have tried to use him as a lever against Honor but that would have backfired in a spectacular way as she could have made public the sort of deal you're suggesting. Getting caught trying to blackmail and officer with Honor's reputation wouldn't work out well.

It might be argued that Honor should have ensured the prisoners in the brig got off the ship, as the buck stops at the captain's chair, yes. So there could be some small grounds for going after her. However the press of more urgent concerns than some one already in the brig who is going to be court-martialed and shot upon return to port for his previous actions would likely be more than enough mitigation to prevent the opposition from having any real leverage over her.
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:46 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

It still represented a chance for the opposition to browbeat Honor and possibly soil her record, even if just getting beached.

Shoot for the moon for a court martial, but accept the beach.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:33 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8317
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:It still represented a chance for the opposition to browbeat Honor and possibly soil her record, even if just getting beached.

Shoot for the moon for a court martial, but accept the beach.

Of course that still assumes that it's in accordance RMN policy to move sailors accused of capital offenses (attempted murder and desertion in the face of the enemy) who are an apparent danger to others from a ships brig to a totally civilian passenger ship prior to returning to combat.

It seems just as likely that, unless totally abandoning ship (which Honor wasn't at the time), that dangerous accused criminals must remain in naval brigs until turned over for trial. In which case there's literally nothing there to even advocate to charge Honor with.

(The situation might be different if Honor was transferring personnel to another naval ship - we just don't know what the regs are.
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by jdtinIA   » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:54 pm

jdtinIA
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:21 pm

Duckk wrote:Why, exactly, would the book get thrown at her? It's Caparelli and Baroness Morncreek's Admiralty, not Janacek's and High Ridge's. It's wartime. The rules tend to get thrown out or relaxed unless you've spectacularly screwed up. And since Honor did save Klaus Hauptman, his daughter, and his ship, she had a very strong partisan in her corner outside of the Admiralty.


My bad. Mixed Silesia up with the Wayfarer assignment. Too many books and too many years.
You are right Wayfarer was to "rehabilitate" her so the RMN could put her where they needed her.
My apologies to all.
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by Fox2!   » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:19 pm

Fox2!
Commodore

Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:34 am
Location: Huntsville, AL

jdtinIA wrote:
My bad. Mixed Silesia up with the Wayfarer assignment. Too many books and too many years.
You are right Wayfarer was to "rehabilitate" her so the RMN could put her where they needed her.
My apologies to all.


I thought the operation involving Wayfarer and her sisters was two fold, at least for the Opposition, as represented by a certain former diplomat:
1. Provide some level of protection to trade being carried on within Silesia by RMMM;
2. And from Houseman's perspective perhaps the most important, have a non-zero chance of killing Honor.
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:36 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5077
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Fox2! wrote:
jdtinIA wrote:
My bad. Mixed Silesia up with the Wayfarer assignment. Too many books and too many years.
You are right Wayfarer was to "rehabilitate" her so the RMN could put her where they needed her.
My apologies to all.


I thought the operation involving Wayfarer and her sisters was two fold, at least for the Opposition, as represented by a certain former diplomat:
1. Provide some level of protection to trade being carried on within Silesia by RMMM;
2. And from Houseman's perspective perhaps the most important, have a non-zero chance of killing Honor.


Right, it was the Admiralty that was using the opportunity of the opposition's suggestion to use Honor, to try to rehabiliate her in everyone's eyes.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: High Ridge and Co blew their chance.
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:57 am

isaac_newton
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1182
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

cthia wrote:It still represented a chance for the opposition to browbeat Honor and possibly soil her record, even if just getting beached.

Shoot for the moon for a court martial, but accept the beach.



Why would they [opposition] have even known that there was a moon [however small] to shoot for? would they have had access to detailed crew records and the log?
Top

Return to Honorverse