GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

cthia wrote:The Naval Academy produces officers like Wanderman who didn't just know how to use the system but was actually intimate with it. (Thanks for the reminder ldwechsler.)

Jonathan_S wrote:FYI Wanderman isn't an officer and so he wouldn't have gone to Saganami Island (besides hes not tactical/command track so even if he was an officer he probably wouldn't have gone to Saganami). He dropped out of freshman physics program to enlist in the navy and go to tech school.

When we first meet him he's Electronics Technician First-Class Aubrey Wanderman then after the little McGyvering of Wayfarer's grav array signal routing he got bumped up acting third-class petty officer and assigned to be Carolyn Wolcott's gravitics chief. I think the last time we saw him was in Shadow of Victory where he's still enlisted, a master chief petty officer on the Charles Ward

cthia wrote:Sure, other navies have been sending their officers to Saganami. But in my mind that is the same as on the job training (OJT). The fact that they are already officers in another navy is nothing less than the same remedial education in which I speak. They are receiving credit and academically benefiting for experience and time in grade. They won't exactly be lost in many of the classes at Saganami. Virgin Verge students however...

Jonathan_S wrote:Current foreign officers sometimes got slots in the ATC, but the allied navies, Erewhon, Alizon, Zanzibar, Grayson sent midshipmen cadets to the undergrad side of Saganami Island. On SoS when Honor presented the final view (Saganami's death ride in defense of his convoy) to the about to graduate midshipmen she muses about how there are less foreign ones than there were during the war.

Shadows of Saganami: Ch 1 wrote:There were fewer non-Manticoran uniforms out there, as well, and the vast majority of the foreign ones which remained were the blue-on-blue of the Grayson Space Navy. Several of the Star Kingdom's smaller allies had cut back sharply on the midshipmen they sent to Saganami Island, and there were no Erewhonese uniforms at all. Dame Honor managed—somehow—to maintain her serene expression as she remembered the tight-faced midshipmen who had withdrawn from their classes in a body when their government denounced its long-standing alliance with the Star Kingdom of Manticore.

So it wasn't just experience officers that backeards little places like Alizon and Zanzibar were sending. I don't know if Saganami Island relaxed their entrance requirements in the interest of common basis among the allied navies, or if they just dug deep to find the relative handful of exceptional candidates from those less advanced systems. But if they could do it during an exestential war against Haven I don't see why they couldn't do the same to better integrate their new imperial systems (Talbott and Silesia) in this less immediately threatening confrontation with the League.

I plead a Homer Simpson moment on calling Wanderman an officer. Doh! He went to tech school? Probably an equivalent of MIT.

Jonathan_S wrote:Current foreign officers sometimes got slots in the ATC, but the allied navies, Erewhon, Alizon, Zanzibar, Grayson sent midshipmen cadets to the undergrad side of Saganami Island. On SoS when Honor presented the final view (Saganami's death ride in defense of his convoy) to the about to graduate midshipmen she muses about how there are less foreign ones than there were during the war.

The operative word is Midshipmen. These are NOT virgins. These planets have navies. And planets with navies have programs emplaced to steer the students who wish to pursue military careers in the right direction beginning very early in their lives. Ninth grade by the post I included upstream. And if they have career tracks and guidance counselors steering them in those tracks they obviously have the available courses/programs emplaced as well. Alliance members have navies. Navies have programs and their own training schools - junior high through high school - academies and curriculum emplaced. IINM, for the most part Verge polities don't have navies so no motivation to waste their resources on subject matter that is geared toward that endeavor. Just as High Point University (the Furniture Market capital of the world) offers subjects and courses and internships in Home Furnishings.

But rest assured, Alliance members have been working closely with the RMNA and vice versa to ensure the appropriate curriculum and requirements. Listen people, outside of the novels there is the real world. Manticore has an exemplary education system on planet. It is why they are still alive and haven't been swallowed by their enemies.

All of you already darn well know the stringent requirements that exist to receive admittance to these universities and academies. The root word of academy is academics, academia. Somewhat.

The Verge isn't ready, IMHO. Not yet. Of course, I agree that they have the potential. But only after working closely with the RMN will that potential see the light of a wedge.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:FYI Wanderman isn't an officer and so he wouldn't have gone to Saganami Island (besides hes not tactical/command track so even if he was an officer he probably wouldn't have gone to Saganami). He dropped out of freshman physics program to enlist in the navy and go to tech school.

When we first meet him he's Electronics Technician First-Class Aubrey Wanderman then after the little McGyvering of Wayfarer's grav array signal routing he got bumped up acting third-class petty officer and assigned to be Carolyn Wolcott's gravitics chief. I think the last time we saw him was in Shadow of Victory where he's still enlisted, a master chief petty officer on the Charles Ward

I plead a Homer Simpson moment on calling Wanderman an officer. Doh! He went to tech school? Probably an equivalent of MIT.

I suspect that the Royal Manticoran Navy's 2 year electronics-technician school is more focused, and less prestigious than MIT. But all we're really told is that the courses that went with learning the applied skills of a new electronics technician would be something a "normal university" would grant 3 years credit for.

Seems a bit short of a full undergraduate degree (and almost certainly less well rounded in things like the humanities than even a hard science and engineering focused school like MIT would do)...

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Current foreign officers sometimes got slots in the ATC, but the allied navies, Erewhon, Alizon, Zanzibar, Grayson sent midshipmen cadets to the undergrad side of Saganami Island. On SoS when Honor presented the final view (Saganami's death ride in defense of his convoy) to the about to graduate midshipmen she muses about how there are less foreign ones than there were during the war.
[snip SoS quote]

The operative word is Midshipmen. These are NOT virgins. These planets have navies. And planets with navies have programs emplaced to steer the students who wish to pursue military careers in the right direction beginning very early in their lives. Ninth grade by the post I included upstream. And if they have career tracks and guidance counselors steering them in those tracks they obviously have the available courses/programs emplaced as well. Alliance members have navies. Navies have programs and their own training schools - junior high through high school - academies and curriculum emplaced. IINM, for the most part Verge polities don't have navies so no motivation to waste their resources on subject matter that is geared toward that endeavor. Just as High Point University (the Furniture Market capital of the world) offers subjects and courses and internships in Home Furnishings.

But rest assured, Alliance members have been working closely with the RMNA and vice versa to ensure the appropriate curriculum and requirements. Listen people, outside of the novels there is the real world. Manticore has an exemplary education system on planet. It is why they are still alive and haven't been swallowed by their enemies.

All of you already darn well know the stringent requirements that exist to receive admittance to these universities and academies. The root word of academy is academics, academia. Somewhat.

The Verge isn't ready, IMHO. Not yet. Of course, I agree that they have the potential. But only after working closely with the RMN will that potential see the light of a wedge.

When students are accepted into a naval academy, normally right out of high school, they become midshipmen. There's no evidence that those student had any previous naval experience in their home systems - they were most likely just promising officer candidates who passed the entrance exams. Certainly the best example we know of, Abigail Hernes, did not serve in the GSM prior to being accepted to the Royal Manticoran Naval Academy.

I see three ways that foreign applicant might be accepted
1) No preferential treatment at all you have to make the cutoff, if there's a five thousand students in the incoming class you have to be in the top five thousand applicants.

2) Somewhat relaxed entrance requirements combined with mandatory additional tutoring once accepted.

3) Special prep schools to spend a year or two doing that additional tutoring before applying.

But again, however they did it they were taking kids from allied systems and putting them through the Naval Academy; and Alizon and Zanzibar don't seem any better off than several of the worlds in Silesia and Talbott.
I'd be surprised if they don't find a way to find and accept reasonable numbers of candidates from Manticore's new Imperial systems.

Jonathan_S wrote:FYI Wanderman isn't an officer and so he wouldn't have gone to Saganami Island (besides hes not tactical/command track so even if he was an officer he probably wouldn't have gone to Saganami). He dropped out of freshman physics program to enlist in the navy and go to tech school.

When we first meet him he's Electronics Technician First-Class Aubrey Wanderman then after the little McGyvering of Wayfarer's grav array signal routing he got bumped up acting third-class petty officer and assigned to be Carolyn Wolcott's gravitics chief. I think the last time we saw him was in Shadow of Victory where he's still enlisted, a master chief petty officer on the Charles Ward

cthia wrote:I plead a Homer Simpson moment on calling Wanderman an officer. Doh! He went to tech school? Probably an equivalent of MIT.

cthia wrote:I suspect that the Royal Manticoran Navy's 2 year electronics-technician school is more focused, and less prestigious than MIT. But all we're really told is that the courses that went with learning the applied skills of a new electronics technician would be something a "normal university" would grant 3 years credit for.

Seems a bit short of a full undergraduate degree (and almost certainly less well rounded in things like the humanities than even a hard science and engineering focused school like MIT would do)...

Jonathan_S wrote:Current foreign officers sometimes got slots in the ATC, but the allied navies, Erewhon, Alizon, Zanzibar, Grayson sent midshipmen cadets to the undergrad side of Saganami Island. On SoS when Honor presented the final view (Saganami's death ride in defense of his convoy) to the about to graduate midshipmen she muses about how there are less foreign ones than there were during the war.
[snip SoS quote]

cthia wrote:The operative word is Midshipmen. These are NOT virgins. These planets have navies. And planets with navies have programs emplaced to steer the students who wish to pursue military careers in the right direction beginning very early in their lives. Ninth grade by the post I included upstream. And if they have career tracks and guidance counselors steering them in those tracks they obviously have the available courses/programs emplaced as well. Alliance members have navies. Navies have programs and their own training schools - junior high through high school - academies and curriculum emplaced. IINM, for the most part Verge polities don't have navies so no motivation to waste their resources on subject matter that is geared toward that endeavor. Just as High Point University (the Furniture Market capital of the world) offers subjects and courses and internships in Home Furnishings.

But rest assured, Alliance members have been working closely with the RMNA and vice versa to ensure the appropriate curriculum and requirements. Listen people, outside of the novels there is the real world. Manticore has an exemplary education system on planet. It is why they are still alive and haven't been swallowed by their enemies.

All of you already darn well know the stringent requirements that exist to receive admittance to these universities and academies. The root word of academy is academics, academia. Somewhat.

The Verge isn't ready, IMHO. Not yet. Of course, I agree that they have the potential. But only after working closely with the RMN will that potential see the light of a wedge.

Jonathan_S wrote:When students are accepted into a naval academy, normally right out of high school, they become midshipmen. There's no evidence that those student had any previous naval experience in their home systems - they were most likely just promising officer candidates who passed the entrance exams. Certainly the best example we know of, Abigail Hernes, did not serve in the GSM prior to being accepted to the Royal Manticoran Naval Academy.

I see three ways that foreign applicant might be accepted
1) No preferential treatment at all you have to make the cutoff, if there's a five thousand students in the incoming class you have to be in the top five thousand applicants.

2) Somewhat relaxed entrance requirements combined with mandatory additional tutoring once accepted.

3) Special prep schools to spend a year or two doing that additional tutoring before applying.

But again, however they did it they were taking kids from allied systems and putting them through the Naval Academy; and Alizon and Zanzibar don't seem any better off than several of the worlds in Silesia and Talbott.
I'd be surprised if they don't find a way to find and accept reasonable numbers of candidates from Manticore's new Imperial systems.

There is no evidence that they had training, I concede that point. The gist of my thought is that these alliance members have navies, which means they enjoy appropriate and imperative career guidance and their programs enjoy a close working relationship with the RMNA, and maintained that relationship through the years and they are kept abreast of changing requirements and environments. Just like on our world. I'm willing to bet that these polities didn't begin sending students overnight without warning and student/program preparation, but even so, they have appropriate guidance and programs already emplaced. Even Manticoran students I would assume have to begin their prep courses somewhere around the ninth grade. Students headed for these universities cannot simply be air dropped onto these campuses without years of preparation and specialized study and expected to excel. Not at Saganami Island.

I am really dumfounded that anyone thinks that the average Verge student, even above average Verge student is currently ready for the premiere naval academy in the galaxy. Absolutely preposterous.

But, whatever.

The Carson brothers received their primary education from Detroit public schools, one of the worst public school systems in the US, while raised by an illiterate mother, yet could work their way to highly successful careers in very education heavy fields. We have a higher education system where the best students from third world countries routinely out perform American students in STEM fields.

Current experience suggests that primary school education in third world countries can prepare their best students to compete at the best first world colleges. My father went med school in a third world country back in the '60's, went through residency and Board certification in Chicago, IL. He passed with flying colors and had a long career in Emergency medicine. He met maintained friendships with fellow residents from Asian countries that also succeeded and went on to prosperous careers.

Preparing college students including to the Sevice Academies is preparing youngsters in the art of learning, not preparing grad students in the nuanced esoterica of hard core science. That's what they teach in college and the Service Academies.

Hi TheEmile,

RFC had a pearl where he explained the original 12 missile Mk-23 pod included a lead missile that linked the rest to reduce the fire control links if needed, as part of the developments that led to Apollo, but such a distributed fire control wasn't used at First Manticore for the usual reasons.

The best protection for Apollo's Mk-23E's, if they needed one, is the fact the SLN is still ignorant of the concept, let alone just how deep down the hole is they're in compared to the GA.

I can't help wondering what happens to the SLN's R&D people, NTM the SLN's incompetent hierarchy, when the rest of the navy figures out just how far, how many decades, they're behind the RMN; it won't be pretty.

L

Theemile wrote:

kzt wrote:quote="Theemile"
The 12 CAs controlling the firing at Spindle only used Apollo pods - that is why they were able to control such massive salvos and do such accurate damage. If they got down to internal missiles, they could have only controlled 3 double broadsides from each SAG-C, or 1440 missiles. The Apollo 8x force multiplier allowed for salvos over 10,000 missiles.quote
I will point out that this is a fairly trivial trick that is easily reproduced by anyone able to design and build even SDMs.

True - they might not be able to integrate FTL or an advanced AI, but anyone should be able to make a oversized control missile with local data repeaters.

I believe at Barnet in the 1st Havenite war, Theisman had his engineers modify their defensive pods to repeat the fire control instructions from 1 control link over all the missiles in the pod. The missiles didn't mesh their data together and coordinate with each other or the mother ship, and each missile was less effective than it would have been with it's own control link, but it allowed even the smallest ships to throw massive salvos with decent guidance.

Quantity, as they say, has a quality all it's own.

Hi guys,

This has been an excellent discussion on developing the liberated systems independent defenses.

I don't feel I can add anything.

Kudos to all, for their contributions.

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:quote="Jonathan_S"(I say 'true' DDM or MDM because the MAlign at least didn't have baffles when they designed the Cataphracts. Those appears to be true staged missiles and much longer (and with smaller warhead) than an DDM of equivalent performance would be. I think the distance between the 1st stage's normal drive impellers and the 2nd stage's CM drive impellers helps prevent the CM impellers from getting wrecked -- but that means a 3 stage version would be very long to maintain that same separation between the 2nd and 3rd stage drives)quote

When designing system defense missiles, size is no problem. A three or four stage Cataphract could be built just as easily as a two stage, ship launched missile. There would be no particular reason to down-size any stage to a CM drive so no particular reason for a down-sized warhead. it should be possible to even match the output of the MK-16G and the corresponding upgrade to MK-23s and Apollo (and Apollo-SD.)

The pods for such missiles (if they are even put in pods) would be bigger than a LAC or DD, but it would be easier and cheaper than building a ship of equal size.

Technodyne would be happy to sell as many missiles based on up-scaled Cataphract designs as they can build. "Genuine" MDSDMs with either Havenite capacitor tech or Manticoran/Grayson fusion tech would be cheaper and more effective, but if they are willing to lose market shares to Technodyne and Erewhon and Maya, and the Andermani in a fruitless attempt to protect a "secret" only their bank balances will suffer -- probably.

Still, while I agree system defense missiles can be arbitrarily large having to have massive pods does make it harder for semi-trusted government to package those system defense missile for offensive use. You can't build all that effective an SD(P), or even merchant based pod layer, if your pods are, as you speculate, approaching the size of a DD. And certainly can't fit broadside tubes for missiles that long.
(Which is basically what kzt was saying, now that I read further down the thread)

OTOH there are potential long term diplomatic issues with only offering truely inferior weapons to potential trading partners -- can make them just a touch resentful and potentially more willing to stab you in the back should a good opportunity arise. So maybe forcing them to stick with black powder gatlings because you won't sell them the more mobile maxim guns isn't a great idea - despite the short term limitations it puts on any expansionistic warlord dreams they might harbor.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd be surprised if they don't find a way to find and accept reasonable numbers of candidates from Manticore's new Imperial systems.

I would expect something similar to the US Military Academies admissions requirements: Step One is a nomination by a Senator (Or Representative?) Each Senator is allotted one slot to nominate a candidate. Certain minimum standardized test scores are required and other restriction (i.e. not married) apply.

In the case of the SEM, each system (Planet) in the Talbott Quadrant would be allowed a set number of nominations for each representative to Parliament (either Regional or Imperial.) The Silesian Protectorates might have similar allotment of candidates. When you can only nominate one or two out of several million constituents it should be no problem to find that one-in-a-million (or two) candidate that can meet the stringent entry requirements.

Jonathan_S wrote:When students are accepted into a naval academy, normally right out of high school, they become midshipmen. There's no evidence that those student had any previous naval experience in their home systems - they were most likely just promising officer candidates who passed the entrance exams. Certainly the best example we know of, Abigail Hernes, did not serve in the GSM prior to being accepted to the Royal Manticoran Naval Academy.

I see three ways that foreign applicant might be accepted
1) No preferential treatment at all you have to make the cutoff, if there's a five thousand students in the incoming class you have to be in the top five thousand applicants.

2) Somewhat relaxed entrance requirements combined with mandatory additional tutoring once accepted.

3) Special prep schools to spend a year or two doing that additional tutoring before applying.

But again, however they did it they were taking kids from allied systems and putting them through the Naval Academy; and Alizon and Zanzibar don't seem any better off than several of the worlds in Silesia and Talbott.
I'd be surprised if they don't find a way to find and accept reasonable numbers of candidates from Manticore's new Imperial systems.

Well this is closer to waking up and smelling the coffee. Ok ok ok Honor, cocoa.

1. If there are five thousand students, only the top fifty will even be considered. Out of those fifty, only the top five have a chance. Of those top five, perhaps one or two will be sent for further remedial study then regular enrollment. That is the real world reality. Until the programs of these systems can be brought up to an accredited par.

2. Absolutely not. These universities DO NOT relax entry requirements. Period. Lest you become the Havenites at one point. Or the SLN now. You simply do not squeeze students in by relaxing requirements.


3. Bingo! Further study. Remediation. Two-year courses at other universities on Manticore or newer satellite campuses at Sag Isle itself.

In summation, remedial courses until these accredited programs can be emplaced in respective systems.

Saganami Island was not set up to entertain the graduates of the galaxy. It was set up for system survival. That mission statement will never change. A serious war can break out at any time. The GA can find themselves in a war with the Andermani, remnants of the League and the MA all at once.

Shit happens. And you had better always have a pot to sit on when it does. Saganami Island has always been that pot!

And you also had better have some shit paper to wipe your bloody noses and asses. Sag Isle is also that paper...

"Please don't squeeze the Charmin."

.

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd be surprised if they don't find a way to find and accept reasonable numbers of candidates from Manticore's new Imperial systems.

I would expect something similar to the US Military Academies admissions requirements: Step One is a nomination by a Senator (Or Representative?) Each Senator is allotted one slot to nominate a candidate. Certain minimum standardized test scores are required and other restriction (i.e. not married) apply.

In the case of the SEM, each system (Planet) in the Talbott Quadrant would be allowed a set number of nominations for each representative to Parliament (either Regional or Imperial.) The Silesian Protectorates might have similar allotment of candidates. When you can only nominate one or two out of several million constituents it should be no problem to find that one-in-a-million (or two) candidate that can meet the stringent entry requirements.

Now this is cocoa.

Heck, at this point in the game the standardized tests will do the job and weed out the rest and the best, leaving that one-in-a-million. Until their programs are brought up to speed.

Students first look at standardized tests on test day...

"WTF!"


"Is this?" Asks the Manty reps overseeing the examinations. "The real world!"

Jonathan_S wrote:

I see three ways that foreign applicant might be accepted
1) No preferential treatment at all you have to make the cutoff, if there's a five thousand students in the incoming class you have to be in the top five thousand applicants.

2) Somewhat relaxed entrance requirements combined with mandatory additional tutoring once accepted.

3) Special prep schools to spend a year or two doing that additional tutoring before applying.

But again, however they did it they were taking kids from allied systems and putting them through the Naval Academy; and Alizon and Zanzibar don't seem any better off than several of the worlds in Silesia and Talbott.
I'd be surprised if they don't find a way to find and accept reasonable numbers of candidates from Manticore's new Imperial systems.

There is possibly a 4th way, seats in a given class being held open at the request of the Foreign Office for "X" number of top Midshipmen who already have some training from their home system Naval Academy, perhaps having finished Academy Prep School and 1 to 2 years or more and are assigned to finish their training at Sag Island as EXCHANGE students, a similar number of RMN Middies finishing their training at Alizon, Grayson, Zanzibar or wherever.

In this way they already have a grounding in the basics, are top performers AND have the ties most governments would require to their home system service and now top it off with experience working with the Navies of allied powers.