GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

Hello LDWechsler,

Why not?

NTM even a cold war is better than a hot one.

Meanwhile: Kudos for such excellent points!

Unfortunately, whatever they hope, I don't think the mandarins can succeed in holding onto power, ie keeping the SL together, by waving the BF club around and at these four ex-members in particular, as not all newsies are going to be shouting E&I's party line, which I have suggested the GA can use such for propagating their own propaganda, especially when its the simple truth.

Given the imminent attack Beowulf and the BF club waving demonstrate the mandarin's true attitude towards the members as satraps or subjects to be exploited for their benefit, the sooner the GA gets TF's out visiting star systems between the wormholes, especially all those the Mandarins never bothered to individually notice, the better.

How many SL members have never had a visit from even a single SD until they sent their notices that they're leaving (for which they don't even need a two week heads up note) then the mandarins respond by dispatching 2 BF squadrons of 16 SD's to keep them in line, including intending to take the taxes that are no longer theirs but the mandarins require despite the rights members are supposed to have under the SL constitution.

That attempt or policy approach would make martyrs of those first four, NTM those who follow them, if the GA wasn't already there, and ended the threat peacefully or more dramatically, the result of which the various db's could spread to ~58 other star systems within a week [57+ LY] by db's assuming the SL's density is near my assumptions.

Theoretically, if the intended victims were all ~114 LY apart, the mandarins would only have to be that stupid just 31 times to antagonize the whole rest of the SL.

But then there are all those other bloody stupid decisions that are going to come home to haunt what's left of the SL rather soon, so the odds the mandarins will survive even that long is quite questionable.

We may get one of the mandarins, if not Kolokoltsov himself of complaining to the effect life now "is just one damn thing after another".

I think the end of the next book will be more definite than a general collapse and an armistice, to avoid panic driven chaos for ~20 years that somehow begins to unravel into something worse.

Best wishes,

L

ldwechsler wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Well Hi cthia,

And good morning to you too.

My apologies for again misspelling secession's, and woe is me for misspelling it twice [I thought I had deleted the second C, but my eyes are getting rather worse], though I wanted to avoid the apostrophe in the title.

Why don't we all give peace a chance?

Yes, we can disagree on minor points about secession in a fictional galaxy from the distant future, but we all worship at the feet of the great chaser of the magic veggie.

As for allowing secession, you have to remember that it is allowed if the people involved can get away with it.

Look at Earth and Europe. England gave Scotland the opportunity to vote on secession. And it failed. Catalonia took a vote on independence and Spain refused to acknowledge it. Since the Catalans are not stupid enough to raise an army, things will not change much.

Things are like that in the Solarian League. Those planets that wnat to secede and can secede probably will secede. Since the Mandarins have no plan to leave and they have no plans for peaceful succession of their power (just HAD to get that word in), they will oppose it as much as they can in ways that they hope will not cause them to lose even more power.

My guess is, since there is only one more book, that things will collapse somewhat and there will be an armistice of sorts.

phillies wrote:Readers wanting to see large number of very sharp minds tackling these exact questions should follow the Brexit debate in the Guardian, complete with the EU request for money.

cthia wrote:What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?

munroburton wrote:I was thinking that. It's a can of worms which has been opened, is still opening and the implications are not fully known yet.

Indeed.

Sorry I missed this post munroburton. Actually, I recall mention of some exasperated League personality, forget who, who questioned the possible legality of it. I don't recall hearing anything else of it and was waiting with baited breath.

It simply seems much too easy to secede IMO. What prevents systems from taking advantage of the League—in some laughable alternate reality where the League is not so corrupt and many resources are allocated to a world only to see it secede when they deem they no longer need the League?

Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.

Hi Jonothan_S,

Kudos! I think you're spot on!

Given how fundamentally they were ignoring the constitution, any reference or correction would be counter productive.

The founders would have protected themselves by such outs, besides arguing to their home political bases that they always had a foolproof easy out (or free get-out-of-jail card) if things went wrong, so the founding star nations were protected in case it all went bad.

The fact that Beowulf's announced action didn't trigger any immediate objections indicates they were simply following the rules everyone already understood.

The mandarins' attempted coercion's will definitely backfire, the only question really being just how spectacularly.

Very interesting times indeed, so keep smiling.

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Then another case of 'disruptive innovation' occurred, like the way Eli Whitney's cotton 'gin' destroyed the US constitutional expectation that slavery, being uneconomic, would die out in the early 19th century.

But when Adrienne Warshawski invented her gravity wave scanners and impeller hyper drive [alpha nodes] she also inadvertently ruined the premises on which the SL constitution had been kept small and limited.
[snip]
Keeping the easy means of leaving probably acted as bait for many star systems, since they could always quickly leave with no league impediments or restrictions.

Hi lyonheart,
I like this categorizing improved hyper travel technology as a disruptive innovation that screwed up the League's base assumptions.

However I think there's more in play with the secession clause than just leaving it as bait for new members; though that might have been a side benefit.
I suspect that they effectively couldn't have removed it from the written constitution. I have to imagine that a constitutional amendment would be subject to the same veto powers as lesser laws in the League and there's no way 100% of the members delegations will accept the loss of sovereignty involved in removing their right to leave (no matter how likely that right is to be invoked)

For that matter simply bringing the concept of removing it up for discussion and a vote might do the exact opposite of what the Mandarins would want and encourage systems to at least think about and start discussing leaving.


It's much easier to leave it as written and, like much of their constitution, simply ignore it to focus on how the system has evolved into actually working.

Jonathan_S wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Then another case of 'disruptive innovation' occurred, like the way Eli Whitney's cotton 'gin' destroyed the US constitutional expectation that slavery, being uneconomic, would die out in the early 19th century.

But when Adrienne Warshawski invented her gravity wave scanners and impeller hyper drive [alpha nodes] she also inadvertently ruined the premises on which the SL constitution had been kept small and limited.
[snip]
Keeping the easy means of leaving probably acted as bait for many star systems, since they could always quickly leave with no league impediments or restrictions.

Hi lyonheart,
I like this categorizing improved hyper travel technology as a disruptive innovation that screwed up the League's base assumptions.

However I think there's more in play with the secession clause than just leaving it as bait for new members; though that might have been a side benefit.
I suspect that they effectively couldn't have removed it from the written constitution. I have to imagine that a constitutional amendment would be subject to the same veto powers as lesser laws in the League and there's no way 100% of the members delegations will accept the loss of sovereignty involved in removing their right to leave (no matter how likely that right is to be invoked)

For that matter simply bringing the concept of removing it up for discussion and a vote might do the exact opposite of what the Mandarins would want and encourage systems to at least think about and start discussing leaving.


It's much easier to leave it as written and, like much of their constitution, simply ignore it to focus on how the system has evolved into actually working.

Do pardon my bold to call attention.

I concur Jonathan. Actually, I think its brilliant!

lyonheart wrote:Hi Jonothan_S,

Kudos! I think you're spot on!

Given how fundamentally they were ignoring the constitution, any reference or correction would be counter productive.

The founders would have protected themselves by such outs, besides arguing to their home political bases that they always had a foolproof easy out (or free get-out-of-jail card) if things went wrong, so the founding star nations were protected in case it all went bad.

The fact that Beowulf's announced action didn't trigger any immediate objections indicates they were simply following the rules everyone already understood.

The mandarins' attempted coercion's will definitely backfire, the only question really being just how spectacularly.

I think with Beowulf, to extend an analogy that didn't exist when RFC initially wrote this, the Mandarines are effectively trying to take extra-legal action equivalent to the EU claiming that the Brexit vote referendum, that formed the basis of the U.K. triggering Article 50, was invalid because of voting fraud or some such and refusing to accept the Article 50 notification. An appeal to the general public opinion despite no legal basis in the Constitution to review or judge the accuracy of actions leading up to the government notification of their intent to secede.

cthia wrote:Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.

You clearly don't understand the Solarian League and its obvious real world counterpart. Beowulf is obviously playing the role of Japan in the League of Nations. (without the aggression and imperialism of 1930's Japan) When Japan left the League of Nations, the League collapsed. When Beowulf leaves the Solarian League, the League will collapse.

The US is nothing like the Solarian League, and we fought a long and bloody Civil War to establish that states may NOT secede. The Solarian League has written into its constitution the right of any member to secede.

The mandarins' attempted coercion's will definitely backfire, the only question really being just how spectacularly.[/quote]I think with Beowulf, to extend an analogy that didn't exist when RFC initially wrote this, the Mandarines are effectively trying to take extra-legal action equivalent to the EU claiming that the Brexit vote referendum, that formed the basis of the U.K. triggering Article 50, was invalid because of voting fraud or some such and refusing to accept the Article 50 notification. An appeal to the general public opinion despite no legal basis in the Constitution to review or judge the accuracy of actions leading up to the government notification of their intent to secede.[/quote]

The Catalan referendum is a better example. Spain simply made it illegal, punished the leader who set it up but not the many thousands who supported it.


Again, the way to secession is to be able to secede. If the mandarins manage to take and control Beowulf then they can't secede. If the mandarins can not, then they have succeeded in seceding. I just had to write that.

In the long run, there are too many planets and too many chances for defeats for the mandarins to do much.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.

You clearly don't understand the Solarian League and its obvious real world counterpart.

He doesn't actually read the books. So I can't blame him for not grasping the details. But I have him on ignore because he doesn't actually read the books.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.

You clearly don't understand the Solarian League and its obvious real world counterpart. Beowulf is obviously playing the role of Japan in the League of Nations. (without the aggression and imperialism of 1930's Japan) When Japan left the League of Nations, the League collapsed. When Beowulf leaves the Solarian League, the League will collapse.

The US is nothing like the Solarian League, and we fought a long and bloody Civil War to establish that states may NOT secede. The Solarian League has written into its constitution the right of any member to secede.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't drawing any parallels. Simply stating a fact that it reminds me of the U.S.'s states wanting to illegally secede.

I know that the League has written it into the constitution. But I am withholding my final vote until such time as it is determined whether a member does indeed have a right to secede but only under certain conditions, under certain qualifications. Such as some spelled out specific legal justification. Not simply because they woke up on the wrong side of the hyper limit one morn.

ldwechsler wrote:
Ship the big shots out to the worlds they've destroyed as their reparations.

Does RH still maintain that prison on Charon? Perhaps for the worst of the SS/Committee for Public Safety types who couldn't/didn't want to hack the new program? Or weren't even offered the opportunity?