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GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:28 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
So you have six weeks to six months until somebody pops a Manty merchanter. And six weeks after that for a half squadron of RMN DDs or a pair of CLs (or even CAs) show up, and as Leto Atriedes said after taking office on Arrakis, "Our Sublime Padishah Emperor has ordered me to assume control and settle all disputes".

Plus of course some of them have sufficient system defense forces to make it uneconomical for pirates to raid them. Even a handful of old-style LACs, used well, can make trolling for victims or trying a smash and grab of an orbital facility a high risk operation.

Even if the pirate wins expending multi-million dollar missiles not inexpensive CMs really cuts into the bottom line.


That said, there seem to be plenty of League and especially Protectorate systems that appear to have nothing more than maybe some traffic control and maybe search and rescue type ships; which could be ripe targets for pirates.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by kzt   » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:39 am

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Fox2! wrote:
So you have six weeks to six months until somebody pops a Manty merchanter. And six weeks after that for a half squadron of RMN DDs or a pair of CLs (or even CAs) show up, and as Leto Atriedes said after taking office on Arrakis, "Our Sublime Padishah Emperor has ordered me to assume control and settle all disputes".

So the lesson is that if you leave the SL Manticore will show up and offer to kill as many of your people as needed to obtain your voluntary submission to their peaceful and not at all imperialistic governance.

I don't think that will work out the way you seem to think it will.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:52 am

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Hi Jonathan_S,

That's a clever idea on the SL's part, but again there's the time factor; by the time Sol found out and reacts, but given a round trip travel time of 6-8 weeks, the GA is already there.

One might argue the war is won at least as far as the verge and shells are concerned, when the mandarins and SLN have learned enough to stop sending TF's out to the shells and verge. :D

Two thirds of the SL have only LAC's apparently, with no indication of their number, age or capability of course.

The remaining third may have hyper capable units, but again no indication of numbers, age or capability, which as TheEmile pointed out, suits RFC down to the bone right now.

11 of the 12 RF happen to have hyper warship SDF's that collectively are rather impressive in the MAlign's view, ie probably larger than any other likely group of SDF's, NTM making even the SLN wary given its shrinking numbers.

RFC has also mentioned many SL members harbor ambitions where their neighbors are concerned, which is why some of their neighbors are also well armed, but others are or have been relying entirely on the SLN, and like the 5 foolish virgins in the moment of crisis can't borrow or rent from their neighbors.

"Who ya gonna call!"

I imagine lots of various situations will be covered in UH, at least in the background, but if I were the leadership of the four who've already presented my secession plebiscite results to Kolokoltsov, even before Beowulf has theirs, arranging for protection against the likely SL reaction would have been the first question the public would have asked at the town-hall equivalents, and be in place and visible before most rational voters would vote as they wished.

Which makes me wonder if some of these might be some of the RF, claiming the 'third way' leadership position, though most of them are holding back until after the EE violation to Beowulf, added to the GA's Mesa massacres when that news spreads through November.

We don't know how many hyper bridges there are now in the SL, there were only 5 in ~1900 PD; but that could easily be up to around 24 from how many we know about now [perhaps another 30-36 beyond the SL], especially with so many near the TQ, extrapolated across the whole SL, for an average of ~124 LY between them even though the textev generally mentions or implies something nearer 200 LY's apart.

That would mean somewhere between 8-12 days for a db to reach a wormhole to contact the RMN there.

Even without the heads up from Mike, I believe the RMN admiral would react positively to signs the SL is fragmenting, sending the best immediate deterrent he/she can from what's available, while requesting reinforcements to handle more such requests.

I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't have a scene where its getting desperate for the RMN in system when a couple of RHN SDP's etc arrive just like the cavalry to save the day, with reactions from CO's and officers in each navy etc.

Definitely very interesting times,

L


Jonathan_S wrote:
Fox2! wrote:
So you have six weeks to six months until somebody pops a Manty merchanter. And six weeks after that for a half squadron of RMN DDs or a pair of CLs (or even CAs) show up, and as Leto Atriedes said after taking office on Arrakis, "Our Sublime Padishah Emperor has ordered me to assume control and settle all disputes".

Plus of course some of them have sufficient system defense forces to make it uneconomical for pirates to raid them. Even a handful of old-style LACs, used well, can make trolling for victims or trying a smash and grab of an orbital facility a high risk operation.

Even if the pirate wins expending multi-million dollar missiles not inexpensive CMs really cuts into the bottom line.


That said, there seem to be plenty of League and especially Protectorate systems that appear to have nothing more than maybe some traffic control and maybe search and rescue type ships; which could be ripe targets for pirates.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:59 pm

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Ok, there seems time to get this in while the thread is resting.

Disclaimer: I am in no way on the League's side. So stop polishing your pitchforks! LOL

However, it did kinda seem wrong for Beowulf to be trying to secede in the middle of a de facto state of war.

"You wanna throw this at us at a time like this!?"

So perhaps League lawyers can pull something legal out of its arse concerning that. OTOH, wars can rage on forever, so the right time might never have come.

How much notice did Beowulf give? ISTR, that the League ignored their notices of intent to secede.

Another question. The Harrington Plan is a savvy construct of one Sally Mander. If the right someone in the League is as astute as our heroine and can see the coming demise of the League beginning with Beowulf as the initial source of the avalanche, then can some emergency government powers be enacted and laws passed to prevent further secessions, at least temporarily? The League does have a right to attempt to survive. Self preservation.

In light of Beowulf seceding—and it seems that that light would shed additional light on the coming darkness—it seems it would cause the same harm that we surmise a Manty attack would do. Rally the troops to want to save themselves.

Yet who in the League could timely breach the walls of a petrified League government?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:51 am

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cthia wrote:Ok, there seems time to get this in while the thread is resting.

Disclaimer: I am in no way on the League's side. So stop polishing your pitchforks! LOL

However, it did kinda seem wrong for Beowulf to be trying to secede in the middle of a de facto state of war.

"You wanna throw this at us at a time like this!?"

So perhaps League lawyers can pull something legal out of its arse concerning that. OTOH, wars can rage on forever, so the right time might never have come.

How much notice did Beowulf give? ISTR, that the League ignored their notices of intent to secede.

In some respects it would be dishonorable not to leave the League during this state of de facto war. The League is both the aggressor and the one violating it's one Constitutional limits in order to do so.
"We must all hang together" doesn't really seem to apply here. What better time to throw up your hands and loudly declaim that you're having no part of this insane and illegal behavior?

Anyway I don't think Beowulf has actually technically given formal notice yet. They announced their intent to hold a plebiscite to withdraw in ART
A Rising Thunder; Ch 34 wrote:“We expected nothing else from a morally, ethically, and legally bankrupt institution,” she continued finally, her voice colder than ever. “However, there is another right which the Constitution guarantees to every member star system, and Beowulf chooses to exercise that right today. If we cannot oppose the ‘Mandarins’’ criminal and disastrous policies from inside the system, we will no longer attempt to. Instead, as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

But we haven't seen the results of that vote (though everyone seems to consider it a forgone conclusion) much less formal notice that Beowulf is definitely leaving.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:14 am

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"as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

That is a really clear notice of intent. It also frames the mechanism which Beowulf is going to use to make the determination as to the opinion of it's citizens so I'm going to guess that it is probably drawn from the language that you could find in the League Constitution IF you could read it in the series. That would be the sensible thing for Beowulf to do, cite the relevent mechanism and move forward on it.

Usually, if you are going to do something legally, you follow the forms and formats laid out for what your are doing. That the League bureaucracy, the mass of mostly politicians in the Assembly of Stars and the Mandarins both don't like what Beowulf has announced what it intends and clearly see the damage and loss to the power and sources of money is very much the greatest portion of why they are objecting and are moving the various areas of government including the SLN to stop it. Failing to stop Beowulf in a legal setting (which Beowulf clearly sees as impossible) the Mandarins are falling back on the OFS book of dirty tricks and military intervention. While, from what we are being told and shown, a very large portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:04 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:"as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

That is a really clear notice of intent. It also frames the mechanism which Beowulf is going to use to make the determination as to the opinion of it's citizens so I'm going to guess that it is probably drawn from the language that you could find in the League Constitution IF you could read it in the series. That would be the sensible thing for Beowulf to do, cite the relevent mechanism and move forward on it.

Usually, if you are going to do something legally, you follow the forms and formats laid out for what your are doing. That the League bureaucracy, the mass of mostly politicians in the Assembly of Stars and the Mandarins both don't like what Beowulf has announced what it intends and clearly see the damage and loss to the power and sources of money is very much the greatest portion of why they are objecting and are moving the various areas of government including the SLN to stop it. Failing to stop Beowulf in a legal setting (which Beowulf clearly sees as impossible) the Mandarins are falling back on the OFS book of dirty tricks and military intervention. While, from what we are being told and shown, a very large portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.



All rebellions search for a legal reason. Think of the US Declaration of Independence and it's opening line about heeding the opinions of others.

Again, if you win you are founding fathers (and mothers). If you lose you are probably dead traitors.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:33 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:"as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

That is a really clear notice of intent. It also frames the mechanism which Beowulf is going to use to make the determination as to the opinion of it's citizens so I'm going to guess that it is probably drawn from the language that you could find in the League Constitution IF you could read it in the series. That would be the sensible thing for Beowulf to do, cite the relevent mechanism and move forward on it.

Usually, if you are going to do something legally, you follow the forms and formats laid out for what your are doing. That the League bureaucracy, the mass of mostly politicians in the Assembly of Stars and the Mandarins both don't like what Beowulf has announced what it intends and clearly see the damage and loss to the power and sources of money is very much the greatest portion of why they are objecting and are moving the various areas of government including the SLN to stop it. Failing to stop Beowulf in a legal setting (which Beowulf clearly sees as impossible) the Mandarins are falling back on the OFS book of dirty tricks and military intervention. While, from what we are being told and shown, a very large portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.



All rebellions search for a legal reason. Think of the US Declaration of Independence and it's opening line about heeding the opinions of others.

Again, if you win you are founding fathers (and mothers). If you lose you are probably dead traitors.

Interestingly enough, the quote "Treason never doth prosper. What's the reason? If it doth prosper, none dare call it treason" was originally made by John Harrington. An ancestor?
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:41 pm

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A portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.[/quote]


All rebellions search for a legal reason. Think of the US Declaration of Independence and it's opening line about heeding the opinions of others.

Again, if you win you are founding fathers (and mothers). If you lose you are probably dead traitors.[/quote]
Interestingly enough, the quote "Treason never doth prosper. What's the reason? If it doth prosper, none dare call it treason" was originally made by John Harrington. An ancestor?[/quote]


Wasn't he also the author of "The Care and Feeding of Treecats?"

The whole idea that it was wrong for Beowulf to leave in time of war is ridiculous. They left because they opposed the war.

Of course, lawyers often create their own worlds. I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote that they can take a chink in a brick wall and turn it into a triumphal arch.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:31 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
The whole idea that it was wrong for Beowulf to leave in time of war is ridiculous. They left because they opposed the war.

Of course, lawyers often create their own worlds. I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote that they can take a chink in a brick wall and turn it into a triumphal arch.


Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

And if war has not been declared, the appropriate chapters of the League constitution and charter do not apply.

At which time, the argument is back to Beowulf leaving because they feel the SL isn't abiding by it's own rules and principles.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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