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GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by kzt   » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:28 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:Mycroft is essentially a KHII module with attached computer support (and presumably some life-support for an onboard tactical crew.) Several Mycroft modules and a few million Apollo-SD (four drive Apollo pods) seeded strategically around the Beowulf System should take care of any conceivable SLN attack force.

Yeah, they are building new hardware driven with new software controlling hyper lethal weapons and putting it directly into operation without actual testing. What could possibly go wrong in the first actual exposure to combat?
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:14 pm

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Hi guys,

Is it time to give this thread drift a rest?

Reiterating the same arguments for days is getting tiresome for the rest of us, since neither has moved the other much.

Every US service academy has many stories of cadets, ie future very successful officers who came when less than fully prepared, but managed on their own in the weeks before classes actually began to learn what they needed, so they kept up if not achieving superior ratings when they never finished high school, or even attended etc.

It has, can, and will be done again.

If you haven't read it, may I recommend the book "The Class of 1846" by John Waugh, 1999?

It's a fascinating account of West Point's crucial role in mid-19th century America, including the healing after the ACW.

Forex, Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson was his congressman's second choice, the first not liking the discipline involved and bailed, leaving him TJ, who was rather ignorant of mathematics, and was the goat the first year, but by dint of long nights studying by the light of the barrack fire place managed to improve considerably, rising to the front rank in those four years, indeed some of his classmates introduced him to other officers as the likely top student if there had been a fifth year despite McClellan and other top scholars!

The old SKM had a population of 6+ billion, with Lynx another 2 billion, while the TQ's 16 members average 2.5 billion for 40 billion, before trying to quantify and add Silesia's population.

If the TQ restricts their potential cadet offering to just the top millionth, or probably a thousand time higher than the SKM's rate, then that's roughly 40,000 near geniuses to select the 5-10% for the first class.

I suspect at that performance level, those seeking admission to Saganami have already sought out and prepared themselves rather better than some may credit them, certainly better than many of the aristocratic idiots our heroes have had to deal with at Saganami or in the service.

For most, Nuncio being one exception, catching up if they are deficient in some category won't take that long to overcome their ignorance, since the various TQ system online databases ought to keep up with any recent discoveries, if there has been anything major in the public domain, in the past almost century besides prolong.

I could see the TQ sending their cadets a term early to take advantage of Manticore's education databases for those lacking complete preparation, although I suspect there are a number of prep schools already offering this if not guaranteeing success, so little need to make it another government program.

Interesting times indeed.

L


cthia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Cthia,

The Old Kingdom has approximately 10 billion residents between Manticoe, Sphynx, Gryphon, Trevor's Star and Lynx. The Talbott Quadrant has approximately 40 billion people. The Madras sector likely has twice as many star systems and another 80 billion more people who might join the Manticoran Economic Alliance. We are talking about an expansion of an order of magnitude greater than the RMN has been working with.

Second point is that we currently have solid tests that correlate strongly with graduation from college. Saganami Island has had experience with the old Manticoran Alliance members sending students. Those nations found themselves in much the same circumstances as Talbott and the Verge nations introduced in Sadow of Victory. Saganami Island understands quite well what qualities and experience their prospective students need to graduate from their experiences.

Setting those standards high enough to keep enrollment up to generating enough officers to sustain the Alliance members navies. It makes sense for the SEM to educate naval officers serving in the Alliance navies. That sort of common foundation in naval personnel will improve communication and cooperation on an operations level as well as a I shared cultural awareness on a broader level. Those Alliance members will gladly contribute to expanding Saganami Island as part of their contribution to the Alliance military.

Bottom line is that the population base will certainly provide a pool of qualified applicants. Those applicants may have to prepare harder to be accepted, but so what? That's part of the selection process. So, I really don't understand your concern. The education at The Island won't be degraded and the expanded cultural diversity stemming from including a large number of new Alliance members will add to the ultimate effectiveness of the Alliance.


The concern would not be mine.

I agree for the most part Peter. I just do not see how the Verge in general could be ready for Saganami Island enrollment now. A fair amount of remedial education is needed. I thought we agreed on that.

Sure, other navies have been sending their officers to Saganami. But in my mind that is the same as on the job training (OJT). The fact that they are already officers in another navy is nothing less than the same remedial education in which I speak. They are receiving credit and academically benefiting for experience and time in grade. They won't exactly be lost in many of the classes at Saganami. Virgin Verge students however...

You do not want to dilute the premiere naval academy in the galaxy with substandard applicants. It takes time.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:21 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, I've been assuming since Mycrosft is described as a fire control relay -- and it's inspired by the lightspeed Moriarty (unmanned) relays that each KHII derived module is unmanned - the tactical section lives elsewhere; probably in a few forts orbiting the system's habitable planet(s).


Everything that is known about Mycroft in Textev: (i.e. the only nine appearances of the word "Mycroft" in my electronic copies. :D)

“Which is why we’re we’re taking the belt-and-suspenders approach and working on Mycroft,” Hamish pointed out, and Honor was forced to nod in acknowledgment. Sneaky of him to use Mycroft, since she was the one who’d first suggested the concept to Sonja Hemphill.

One of the problems the Alliance was bound to face if the situation continued to deteriorate was the need to free up capital ships for mobile operations rather than tying them down in static defenses. Honor, as the unwilling beta tester for Shannon Foraker’s Moriarity system, had developed a profound respect for the effectiveness of massed MDM pods in the system-defense role. Michelle Henke’s success at Spindle had reconfirmed that respect even before Filareta’s spectacular demise. Which was why Honor had devoted quite a bit of thought to ways in which Moriarity’s system-wide network of dispersed sensor and fire-control stations could be updated to take advantage of the Mark 23 and the Mark 23-E. The answer Hemphill had come up with was Mycroft, named for a character out of the same pre-space detective fiction which had given Foraker Moriarity in the first place.

Essentially, Mycroft was simply a couple of dozen Keyhole-Two platforms parked at various points in a star system. It was a little more complicated than that, since the platforms were designed to operate on beamed power from their motherships, so it was necessary to provide each platform with its own power plant. And it was also necessary to provide the raw fire control and the rest of the supporting hardware and software which was normally parked aboard the platform’s deploying ship-of-the-wall. Those were relatively straightforward problems in engineering, however, especially with an entire planet to work with, and tech crews were working at breakneck pace even as Honor stood with her uncle and her spouses to meet them.

Mycroft’s advantages over Moriarity would be profound. Unlimited by Moriarity’s lightspeed control links, Mycroft would be able to take full advantage of the Mark 23-E and the FTL reconnaissance platforms which were also being thickly seeded throughout the system’s volume. And unlike Moriarity—which had been unarmed and defenseless when Honor used Hemphill’s Baldur to take it out—Keyhole-Two platforms were simply crammed with active antimissile defenses. No doubt they could be taken out, but it would be a difficult task, and enough of them were being deployed as part of Mycroft to ensure survivability through sheer redundancy.

“I agree that once Mycroft’s up and running, especially, anybody who goes after Beowulf is going to get bloodied in a hurry,” she said now. “I guess my main concerns are that, like the terminus picket, Mycroft isn’t a visible deterrent, especially since we’re keeping it so completely under wraps till it’s actually up and running, and, secondly, that it isn’t up and running yet and won’t be for at least another couple of months. Maybe longer.” She shook her head. “It’s that window that worries me,” she said soberly. “In the Mandarins’ place, I’d make it a point to assume that we had to be aware of Beowulf’s vulnerability and be doing something about it, but I’m not at all sure they will.”


Since each Mycroft platform has the necessary "hardware and software" of a "deploying ship-of-the-wall" Life support for a small tactical crew (12-24 persons for 24/7/365 coverage) would be a negligible additional cost compared to a centralized fort (or three.) Even if each Mycroft is completely remote controlled, it wouldn't take a fort to control the network. A LAC or even a pinnace could manage the whole network since the Mycroft Modules have all the hardware and software required.

From a production standpoint, building Mycroft with life support means that potential customers don't have to build a fort unless they want to; Mycroft would be a completely self-contained, turn-key solution for system defense tactical direction.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:11 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, I've been assuming since Mycrosft is described as a fire control relay -- and it's inspired by the lightspeed Moriarty (unmanned) relays that each KHII derived module is unmanned - the tactical section lives elsewhere; probably in a few forts orbiting the system's habitable planet(s).


Everything that is known about Mycroft in Textev: (i.e. the only nine appearances of the word "Mycroft" in my electronic copies. :D)

“Which is why we’re we’re taking the belt-and-suspenders approach and working on Mycroft,” Hamish pointed out, and Honor was forced to nod in acknowledgment. Sneaky of him to use Mycroft, since she was the one who’d first suggested the concept to Sonja Hemphill.

One of the problems the Alliance was bound to face if the situation continued to deteriorate was the need to free up capital ships for mobile operations rather than tying them down in static defenses. Honor, as the unwilling beta tester for Shannon Foraker’s Moriarity system, had developed a profound respect for the effectiveness of massed MDM pods in the system-defense role. Michelle Henke’s success at Spindle had reconfirmed that respect even before Filareta’s spectacular demise. Which was why Honor had devoted quite a bit of thought to ways in which Moriarity’s system-wide network of dispersed sensor and fire-control stations could be updated to take advantage of the Mark 23 and the Mark 23-E. The answer Hemphill had come up with was Mycroft, named for a character out of the same pre-space detective fiction which had given Foraker Moriarity in the first place.

Essentially, Mycroft was simply a couple of dozen Keyhole-Two platforms parked at various points in a star system. It was a little more complicated than that, since the platforms were designed to operate on beamed power from their motherships, so it was necessary to provide each platform with its own power plant. And it was also necessary to provide the raw fire control and the rest of the supporting hardware and software which was normally parked aboard the platform’s deploying ship-of-the-wall. Those were relatively straightforward problems in engineering, however, especially with an entire planet to work with, and tech crews were working at breakneck pace even as Honor stood with her uncle and her spouses to meet them.

Mycroft’s advantages over Moriarity would be profound. Unlimited by Moriarity’s lightspeed control links, Mycroft would be able to take full advantage of the Mark 23-E and the FTL reconnaissance platforms which were also being thickly seeded throughout the system’s volume. And unlike Moriarity—which had been unarmed and defenseless when Honor used Hemphill’s Baldur to take it out—Keyhole-Two platforms were simply crammed with active antimissile defenses. No doubt they could be taken out, but it would be a difficult task, and enough of them were being deployed as part of Mycroft to ensure survivability through sheer redundancy.

“I agree that once Mycroft’s up and running, especially, anybody who goes after Beowulf is going to get bloodied in a hurry,” she said now. “I guess my main concerns are that, like the terminus picket, Mycroft isn’t a visible deterrent, especially since we’re keeping it so completely under wraps till it’s actually up and running, and, secondly, that it isn’t up and running yet and won’t be for at least another couple of months. Maybe longer.” She shook her head. “It’s that window that worries me,” she said soberly. “In the Mandarins’ place, I’d make it a point to assume that we had to be aware of Beowulf’s vulnerability and be doing something about it, but I’m not at all sure they will.”


Since each Mycroft platform has the necessary "hardware and software" of a "deploying ship-of-the-wall" Life support for a small tactical crew (12-24 persons for 24/7/365 coverage) would be a negligible additional cost compared to a centralized fort (or three.) Even if each Mycroft is completely remote controlled, it wouldn't take a fort to control the network. A LAC or even a pinnace could manage the whole network since the Mycroft Modules have all the hardware and software required.

From a production standpoint, building Mycroft with life support means that potential customers don't have to build a fort unless they want to; Mycroft would be a completely self-contained, turn-key solution for system defense tactical direction.

David did mention them again in a 2012 post in a thread 'possible new destroyer design' saying
"You install Mycroft in the inner system, with dispersed FTL com nodes to control Apollo system defense muissiles the same way Shannon Foraker's Moriarity did with Havenite MDMs against 8th Fleet. You use LACs to deal with the small fry and to compel the bad guys to commit heavy forces to cross the hyper limit inbound rather than sending light units."

(Later in that post he mentioned, possibly for the first time, the new 4 stage drive Apollo system defense missiles.

Still describing them as FTL com nodes doesn't address whether they're manned. I guess in something larger than a destroyer you're right that tacking on some living quarters, a tac compartment, and some storage doesn't add much space. But even if Mycroft nodes can be manned I can't see why you'd bother to actually man more than a few of them. Given relay capability it's a waste of manpower to put crews on each of the 85+ nodes that it seems to take to cover the system within the hyper limit.


Still I guess we'll have to wait and see if Uncompromising Honor contains a better description of the deployed Mycroft design.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:00 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:But even if Mycroft nodes can be manned I can't see why you'd bother to actually man more than a few of them. Given relay capability it's a waste of manpower to put crews on each of the 85+ nodes that it seems to take to cover the system within the hyper limit.


I doubt that every Mycroft would be manned, but with a KHII's defensive suite manning a Mycroft Module would probably be as safe as anything short of a SD. If only 2 or 3 percent are manned, that would provide a decent level of redundancy without the additional cost of three or more cruiser sized command stations such as Moriarity used.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:19 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But even if Mycroft nodes can be manned I can't see why you'd bother to actually man more than a few of them. Given relay capability it's a waste of manpower to put crews on each of the 85+ nodes that it seems to take to cover the system within the hyper limit.


I doubt that every Mycroft would be manned, but with a KHII's defensive suite manning a Mycroft Module would probably be as safe as anything short of a SD. If only 2 or 3 percent are manned, that would provide a decent level of redundancy without the additional cost of three or more cruiser sized command stations such as Moriarity used.


Putting the focus on the command stations. We should remember that on SDs, there is another ~80 ktons of computers in the SD on top of the standard SD tactical section which handles the KH II firecontrol. If we just seed the system with moded KH II modules, we are only emplacing the sensor net and firecontrol repeaters, not the tactical firecontrol system itself.


If each firecontrol station has 2 KHII drones and an SD's tactical section, it will have to mass in the BC range at a minimum.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:27 am

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Theemile wrote:If each firecontrol station has 2 KHII drones and an SD's tactical section, it will have to mass in the BC range at a minimum.


There is only one KHII drone incorporated in each Mycroft -- or so the previously quoted textev suggests. That would put them in destroyer or light cruiser size range. They wouldn't need to be much larger than that because they wouldn't need a cruiser's crew.

The reference to RDs feeding intel to the network suggests the "hardware and software support" is all or most of the 80Ktons computers associated with a KHII installation that would be built into a Mycroft module -- whether a command module or "slave" module.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:58 pm

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What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:26 pm

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cthia wrote:What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?



Actually, in recent centuries most of the additions had come because the OFS brought them in. Yes, there were expenses. But basically the planets were raped.

And if a planet came in on its own, where would the expense be? Not very much. Maybe a handful of officials.

Keep in mind that if a lot of planets secede, the navy will start to really have trouble. And it might not be easy not only to reconquer but to hold the planets. One note out, and the GA would send ships and bye bye League.

The tougher the League is, the more planets they might lose.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:44 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
cthia wrote:What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?



Actually, in recent centuries most of the additions had come because the OFS brought them in. Yes, there were expenses. But basically the planets were raped.

And if a planet came in on its own, where would the expense be? Not very much. Maybe a handful of officials.

Keep in mind that if a lot of planets secede, the navy will start to really have trouble. And it might not be easy not only to reconquer but to hold the planets. One note out, and the GA would send ships and bye bye League.

The tougher the League is, the more planets they might lose.

Yes, but the legality of a plebiscite is what I question. I thought it was simply to measure the feelings of the population. The plebiscite to determine whether Beowulf would secede was held in spite of the League, of which they are still a part, and was held on Beowulf.

I misunderstood the plebiscite as simply being a determination of the population of Beowulf as whether they wanted to go the next step. I didn't think the outcome of the plebiscite was anything more than the preliminaries. I was shocked to learn differently.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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