Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?

Montrose Toast wrote:

saber964 wrote:
The last one is kinda off. A brig is not slang for a prison or guardhouse it is naval term for an ashore prison. The U.S. Navy maintains four medium security brigs near major naval bases. Also most naval bases have light security brigs for short term detentions.

There are also Afloat Brigs on Carriers and big deck gators. I almost got assigned Brig duty - went to Brig Afloat school in Yokusuka in 93 [CV62]. Not enough room on small boys for a Brig.

What was your rate? I was a BM3 when I got out. My ship was and is the last one left afloat of her class.

cthia wrote:Would Beowulfans continue to be legal in the SLN?

Probably not, but it wouldn't be Beowulf leaving the League that made that the case, it would be their membership in a Grand Alliance that is actively at war with the League. The SLN has at least some officers (almost always junior, and almost always Marines or Frontier Fleet, but some) from the protectorates, which are not legally part of the League, so you do not need to be a League citizen by birth to serve in the SLN.

Hi Drothgery,

Quite right.

Part of the reason seems to be, not enough enlisting, or a an official perceived need for enlistments, and a potential means to seducing some of the best and brightest of the verge etc from opposition.

There have been some interesting stories from RFC among others about how RN captain John Paul Jones, might have frustrated and blocked the french at Chesapeake Bay in the fall of 1781; or general G. Washington as his majesty's commander in the American colonies might have ended the revolution much sooner.

I suspect most Beowulfian spies in the SLN aren't known for their Beowulfian ancestry, which given the s7ubterfuges the BSC engages in, are probably buried pretty deep.

Until we know more about how many of the core wore worlds actually actively serve in the SLN, say 10-20,000 people each, we can't argue either way if Beowulf in over or under represented, which as another posted above could very well be because of a ll the BSDF cruisers out looking for slavers, NTM their attitude regarding the SL and SLN for decades if not centuries.

If ballpark figures put the active on-board crewmen of both branches of the SLN at around 20.4 million (~8.4 M for FF, 2000 active SD's at 6000 each [averaging rather smaller than the Haven sector], not counting service transports, repair and supply ships etc,a total SL population of 10-20 trillion means the ratio is somewhere between 1/2 million and 1 million to one [1/2 M to 1M to 1], which might mean around 30-60,000 of earth/Sol's population, although it'd probably be much higher than that because it is Sol; though other core world systems with the same population might nail the average or mean.

Beowulf having a much smaller population, only 9 representatives in the executive council (less than 1/1300th), might be be expected to 'set an example or as a courtesy, etc' supply only a few to possibly ten thousand; being spread across some 23.83 million plus cubic LY's, ie over 2400 star systems and 10,000+ hyper warships.

I suspect even if Beowulf didn't know about Laocoon I & II, it still might have had plans to warn its crewmen within 'personal' messages from 'family or friends' if they don't figure things out for themselves earlier.

Given Beowulf's rather large merchant marine, fourth in the SL in early textev, there are probably lots of Beowulf embassies or consulates across the SL, which might even have some manticorans working out of an office to handle their merchant marine, so there might be a refuge or a possible quiet connection if a Beowulfian SLN crewman didn't return from liberty.

Again, interesting times.

L

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:Would Beowulfans continue to be legal in the SLN?

Probably not, but it wouldn't be Beowulf leaving the League that made that the case, it would be their membership in a Grand Alliance that is actively at war with the League. The SLN has at least some officers (almost always junior, and almost always Marines or Frontier Fleet, but some) from the protectorates, which are not legally part of the League, so you do not need to be a League citizen by birth to serve in the SLN.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:Would Beowulfans continue to be legal in the SLN?

Probably not, but it wouldn't be Beowulf leaving the League that made that the case, it would be their membership in a Grand Alliance that is actively at war with the League. The SLN has at least some officers (almost always junior, and almost always Marines or Frontier Fleet, but some) from the protectorates, which are not legally part of the League, so you do not need to be a League citizen by birth to serve in the SLN.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Drothgery,

Quite right.

Part of the reason seems to be, not enough enlisting, or a an official perceived need for enlistments, and a potential means to seducing some of the best and brightest of the verge etc from opposition.

There have been some interesting stories from RFC among others about how RN captain John Paul Jones, might have frustrated and blocked the french at Chesapeake Bay in the fall of 1781; or general G. Washington as his majesty's commander in the American colonies might have ended the revolution much sooner.

I suspect most Beowulfian spies in the SLN aren't known for their Beowulfian ancestry, which given the s7ubterfuges the BSC engages in, are probably buried pretty deep.

Until we know more about how many of the core wore worlds actually actively serve in the SLN, say 10-20,000 people each, we can't argue either way if Beowulf in over or under represented, which as another posted above could very well be because of a ll the BSDF cruisers out looking for slavers, NTM their attitude regarding the SL and SLN for decades if not centuries.

If ballpark figures put the active on-board crewmen of both branches of the SLN at around 20.4 million (~8.4 M for FF, 2000 active SD's at 6000 each [averaging rather smaller than the Haven sector], not counting service transports, repair and supply ships etc,a total SL population of 10-20 trillion means the ratio is somewhere between 1/2 million and 1 million to one [1/2 M to 1M to 1], which might mean around 30-60,000 of earth/Sol's population, although it'd probably be much higher than that because it is Sol; though other core world systems with the same population might nail the average or mean.

Beowulf having a much smaller population, only 9 representatives in the executive council (less than 1/1300th), might be be expected to 'set an example or as a courtesy, etc' supply only a few to possibly ten thousand; being spread across some 23.83 million plus cubic LY's, ie over 2400 star systems and 10,000+ hyper warships.

I suspect even if Beowulf didn't know about Laocoon I & II, it still might have had plans to warn its crewmen within 'personal' messages from 'family or friends' if they don't figure things out for themselves earlier.

Given Beowulf's rather large merchant marine, fourth in the SL in early textev, there are probably lots of Beowulf embassies or consulates across the SL, which might even have some manticorans working out of an office to handle their merchant marine, so there might be a refuge or a possible quiet connection if a Beowulfian SLN crewman didn't return from liberty.

Again, interesting times.

L

My bold to call attention.

I thought as much as well, that Beowulf would communicate with its citizens in the League, civilian and military. But what of the risk of such communications? It would only take one to fall into the hands of the wrong Solarian. Then the SLN would have proof positive of Beowulf's complicity.

The human element would have been the weak link. E.g., a Beowulfan in the SLN who is married or in love with a Solarian citizen would want to convince her to also get out. She does not wish to go without some really good reason. After that reason is divulged, she in turn tells her entire family. Love. The human element. Beowulf would surely burn.

Like I said, the same thought of warning their citizens came to me as well, but then... would it be worth the risk, considering the big picture?

I sure hope they warned them. Difficult to think of them left to the wolves.

A thought occurred to me. What exactly would be the ramifications if the SLN began killing the Beowulfan officers wholesale and Beowulf and Manticore caught wind of it? The League could accuse the Beowulfan officers of complicity and charge them with treason, both as an act to rile its own citizens against Beowulf and the GA, and as an additional measure to rid its navy of any further traitors.

The Solarians are a lot of things - arrogant and insulated come to mind - but they are not barbarous, murderous idiots. Regardless of their flaws, they are still a professional navy, and they're not just going to shoot people out of hand for as flimsy a reason as that. The League isn't even in a declared state of war, so execution (without so much as a trial) is completely off the table.

Duckk wrote:The Solarians are a lot of things - arrogant and insulated come to mind - but they are not barbarous, murderous idiots. Regardless of their flaws, they are still a professional navy, and they're not just going to shoot people out of hand for as flimsy a reason as that. The League isn't even in a declared state of war, so execution (without so much as a trial) is completely off the table.

Because Chatterjee's helpless destroyers were not killed by murderous, barbarous idiots. Byng certainly wasn't an idiot. He was a mental giant. Crandall certainly was a mental giant and she wasn't loaded for bear either when she was shortstopped.

Oh, wait. It wasn't their fault. They were coerced, used and played by a third party so easily because they were not idiots. A third party that may still decide to destroy a freighter full of Beowulfan officers. Perhaps part of the civilians are not idiots, but they do not control the navy. The MA does. Surely certain personalities of the Mandarins are not barbarous murderous idiots.

Besides, it wouldn't be murder if all of the Beowulfan soldiers effects were confiscated and the ones who received communication from home regarding Lacoon hadn't come clean and were charged with treason. It isn't murder to kill traitors.

Uh oh. There's that word again... Please forgive me Duckk!...

"It is not treason! Repeat, not treason! OMG, it is not treason!!!"

Duckk wrote:The Solarians are a lot of things - arrogant and insulated come to mind - but they are not barbarous, murderous idiots. Regardless of their flaws, they are still a professional navy, and they're not just going to shoot people out of hand for as flimsy a reason as that. The League isn't even in a declared state of war, so execution (without so much as a trial) is completely off the table.

Oh! Lest I forget???...

Whatever wicked this way comes to the planet of Beowulf IS NOT because the Solarians are barbarous, murderous idiots.

"Open a channel."

"Channel open sir."

"ATTENTION BEOWULF! These missiles we send to you is because we are a smart and humane people. Burn Beowulf, burn!"

cthia wrote:

Duckk wrote:The Solarians are a lot of things - arrogant and insulated come to mind - but they are not barbarous, murderous idiots. Regardless of their flaws, they are still a professional navy, and they're not just going to shoot people out of hand for as flimsy a reason as that. The League isn't even in a declared state of war, so execution (without so much as a trial) is completely off the table.

Because Chatterjee's helpless destroyers were not killed by murderous, barbarous idiots. Byng certainly wasn't an idiot. He was a mental giant. Crandall certainly was a mental giant and she wasn't loaded for bear either when she was shortstopped.

Oh, wait. It wasn't their fault. They were coerced, used and played by a third party so easily because they were not idiots. A third party that may still decide to destroy a freighter full of Beowulfan officers. Perhaps part of the civilians are not idiots, but they do not control the navy. The MA does. Surely certain personalities of the Mandarins are not barbarous murderous idiots.

Besides, it wouldn't be murder if all of the Beowulfan soldiers effects were confiscated and the ones who received communication from home regarding Lacoon hadn't come clean and were charged with treason. It isn't murder to kill traitors.

Uh oh. There's that word again... Please forgive me Duckk!...

"It is not treason! Repeat, not treason! OMG, it is not treason!!!"

A momentary panic overreaction is vastly different thing from a systematic extermination campaign.

It absolutely is murder to kill accused traitors without the benefit of a trial. And someone isn't a traitor just because they happen to have been born in a place that later rebels against your (even presuming that exercising the written constitutional provisions to withdraw from the League count as rebelling)



Might a few Beowulfan sailors end up beaten or killed in an overreaction while trying to take them into custody? It's certainly not impossible. But that didn't seem to be what you were asking about.

cthia wrote:

Duckk wrote:The Solarians are a lot of things - arrogant and insulated come to mind - but they are not barbarous, murderous idiots. Regardless of their flaws, they are still a professional navy, and they're not just going to shoot people out of hand for as flimsy a reason as that. The League isn't even in a declared state of war, so execution (without so much as a trial) is completely off the table.

Because Chatterjee's helpless destroyers were not killed by murderous, barbarous idiots. Byng certainly wasn't an idiot. He was a mental giant. Crandall certainly was a mental giant and she wasn't loaded for bear either when she was shortstopped.

Oh, wait. It wasn't their fault. They were coerced, used and played by a third party so easily because they were not idiots. A third party that may still decide to destroy a freighter full of Beowulfan officers. Perhaps part of the civilians are not idiots, but they do not control the navy. The MA does. Surely certain personalities of the Mandarins are not barbarous murderous idiots.

Besides, it wouldn't be murder if all of the Beowulfan soldiers effects were confiscated and the ones who received communication from home regarding Lacoon hadn't come clean and were charged with treason. It isn't murder to kill traitors.

Uh oh. There's that word again... Please forgive me Duckk!...

"It is not treason! Repeat, not treason! OMG, it is not treason!!!"

Jonathan_S wrote:A momentary panic overreaction is vastly different thing from a systematic extermination campaign.

It absolutely is murder to kill accused traitors without the benefit of a trial. And someone isn't a traitor just because they happen to have been born in a place that later rebels against your (even presuming that exercising the written constitutional provisions to withdraw from the League count as rebelling)



Might a few Beowulfan sailors end up beaten or killed in an overreaction while trying to take them into custody? It's certainly not impossible. But that didn't seem to be what you were asking about.

Momentary panic reaction?

Byng, perhaps I can be momentarily swayed. But at the end of the day, when it comes to Manticorans, even Admiral Byng was a murderous, barbarous idiot deeply at the core. It is his core that allowed him to make the decision so quickly and easily as he did. When it comes to Manties, Byng was worse than a bull, and he could only see in the red spectrum. But let's bracket that one shall we?

The actions of Crandall, another Admiral, could not have been dismissed as momentary panic. The actions of Admiral Tsang could not have been dismissed as momentary panic. The Second Battle of Manticore can not be dismissed as momentary panic.

The actions of Rajampet? Nope.

Fact of the matter is, when it comes to the Manticorans the SLN and its leaders can only see the Manticorans through red colored glasses. Worse than a bull. It is their murderous, barbaric, idiotic nature at the core concerning the Manticorans that has them neck-deep in muck.

If 'what wicked this way comes' to Beowulf is giftwrapped from the SLN, I won't be surprised. And if they are willing to do something wicked to the planet of traitors of the Second Battle of Manticore, I can't see any safety for any Beowulfan citizens.

Solarian minded safety for Beowulfan citizens while Beowulf burns from a Solarian kindle? Whaaaaat?

.