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Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?

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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:21 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm still interested in what Manticore could realistically do, would do, if Beowulfan officers began to be killed by the SLN? I never said that I thought the League would be so crass, murderous or idiotic. Well, I reserve the right to hold the murderous, idiotic part in abeyance. LOL

But what can be realistically done if the officers' lives were in danger after a few deaths by suspicious causes?
As a practical matter about all I think they could do would be to convene Courts Martial to try any and all captured officers and men involved in any deliberate death of Beowulfan detainees, for violations of the Deneb accords and/or relevant SLN laws or military regulations.

Though if they learn such violations are happening they could certainly attempt to publicize that they would never stop looking for any such people in order to subject them to the fullest extent of the applicable laws.
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by phillies   » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:04 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
saber964 wrote:The only example I can come up with in this scenario is the U.S. Military in the months surrounding the CSA attack on Ft. Sumter. Several units in the western states disintegrated as units. IIRC the 5th Cavalry regiment operating in western Nebraska and Wyoming lost 70% of it's officers and 50% of it enlisted. You also had several northerners who stayed on and served in the CSA IIRC the Confederate commander in Vicksburg was born in Pennsylvania and had served most of his career to that point in the South.


It will not be as simple as it was before the US Civil War. The US army was very small. People were generally friends and honor was considered vital.
In this case, I think there may be some form of parole. But there are ships all over the League. What happens on an OFS ship a couple of months away? We've seen that there are places where the navy has no idea a war has started.

Things will get messy. And if there is an attack on Beowulf they are likely to get messier.


Is there any reason to suppose that the Solarian League has a death penalty for general crimes, not including Deneb?
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:32 pm

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cthia wrote:A thought occurred to me. What exactly would be the ramifications if the SLN began killing the Beowulfan officers wholesale and Beowulf and Manticore caught wind of it? The League could accuse the Beowulfan officers of complicity and charge them with treason, both as an act to rile its own citizens against Beowulf and the GA, and as an additional measure to rid its navy of any further traitors.
Duckk wrote:The Solarians are a lot of things - arrogant and insulated come to mind - but they are not barbarous, murderous idiots. Regardless of their flaws, they are still a professional navy, and they're not just going to shoot people out of hand for as flimsy a reason as that. The League isn't even in a declared state of war, so execution (without so much as a trial) is completely off the table.



EXHIBIT A

runsforcelery wrote:“I can’t compel you to do anything without killing more of your ships, Admiral,” she said flatly, “and between the two of us, I think enough people have already died today. So here’s my proposition. You take your surviving ships, and you get the hell out of Hypatia. I’m sure the Hypatians will take care of rescuing all your surviving personnel, assuming they can stop trying to save the civilians — the children — the Solarian League is willing to murder to make a political statement. If you don’t want to do that, that’s fine. You’ve got ten minutes to make up your mind. If you decide to stay, then I suppose you and I will find out how many more of your battlecruisers I can take out, one-by-one, until you — or your successor — finally figure out where I really am and manage to return fire. Of course, even when you do, my defenses are designed to stand up to Manticoran missile fire, aren’t they? And, trust me, I’m one hell of a lot faster than anything you’ve got. You can’t find me, you can’t hit me, you can’t catch me, and you damned well can’t outrun me.

“So you make up your mind, Admiral Yountz. You tell me what you’re going to do and whether or not I’m going have to start killing more Sollies today after all.


I'll gladly let you take that one back Duckk. If civilians and children aren't off the table, neither is anything else.

Poor Carmichael. I have this foreboding that he's seen the last of a binary system.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by Rincewind   » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:22 pm

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Dauntless wrote:given beowulf's comtempt for battle fleet and frontier fleet I wonder if a beowulfan who wants a navy career would even consider joining the SLN or would they be happy joining the SDF?

if they want to see the stars (assuming that the SDF doesn't leave system much, (it is called a system defence force after all) but there is that talk of a beowulf cruisers capturing slavers) might they choose instead to join the RMN? or at least get a job on a manty merchie?


Not having my copy of Torch of Freedom to hand, I cannot be certain but I believe it was mentioned in that book that Hugh Arai was freed from the slave ship he was on by a SLN warship which had a Beowulfan captain & thus was one of the few to actually enforce the Cherwell Convention.

Does anyone else remember this passage?
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:02 pm

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Rincewind wrote:Not having my copy of Torch of Freedom to hand, I cannot be certain but I believe it was mentioned in that book that Hugh Arai was freed from the slave ship he was on by a SLN warship which had a Beowulfan captain & thus was one of the few to actually enforce the Cherwell Convention.

Does anyone else remember this passage?

I did some looking finally found the details when he was talking the Berry in the ice cream parlor.

But it was a Beowulf warship, under a Captain Jeremiah. It then goes on to a long and sordid tale about jurisdictional disputes and OFS.


I also did a wide search for "Cherwell" and couldn't find any mention of a specific SLN ship enforcing it (But then the word only appeared 39 times in the whole 26 books I searched)
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:05 pm

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cthia wrote:Poor Carmichael. I have this foreboding that he's seen the last of a binary system.


:idea:
They were talking about sticking it to Carmichael in ART. But it just occurred to me that the RMN has the onus of responsibility to repatriate many a captured SLN personnel. And may undoubtedly capture more. Why not effect a prisoner exchange to recover Carmichael?

"QE III, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:34 am

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I doubt Manticore is going to be doing anything like a mass prisoner exchange till the whole League problem gets sorted out.

There may be some smaller exchanges as GA personel, mostly diplomatic or civilian (many who are effectivly taken hostage by SL) are recovered. That might go along the lines of giving back one of equal rank for military or diplomatic etc. Or is might be 100 low ranking spacers for one GA military person.

Evential, at the close of hostilities I would suggest something like:

Send X number of troop transports to (fill in the blank) to arrive at (date to be filled in). With your confirmation include the capasity of each ship. We will deliver that number of your former service people and a list. This will be repeated until you have them all back.

You already have the casualty lists of the deceased.

----

There is probably also going to be a MAJOR problem of SLN personel who don't wish to go back to the SLN, the League or what is left of it. If they came from or have some connection to a system which has left the League, they might request being released to go there and not though whatever bureaucratic nightmare the handing over of SLN personel to the League/SLN is going to be. Remember, the League and SLN isn't going to be in shuch god shape by that time.
Not saying many of thse people are going to want to stay with Manticore or Haven, but just want to go home which may then be outside the control of the League. Manticore might not want to deal with that hassle but feel compelled to assist people. I will leave that up to RFC:)
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:45 am

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Brigade XO wrote:I doubt Manticore is going to be doing anything like a mass prisoner exchange till the whole League problem gets sorted out.

There may be some smaller exchanges as GA personel, mostly diplomatic or civilian (many who are effectivly taken hostage by SL) are recovered. That might go along the lines of giving back one of equal rank for military or diplomatic etc. Or is might be 100 low ranking spacers for one GA military person.

Evential, at the close of hostilities I would suggest something like:

Send X number of troop transports to (fill in the blank) to arrive at (date to be filled in). With your confirmation include the capasity of each ship. We will deliver that number of your former service people and a list. This will be repeated until you have them all back.

You already have the casualty lists of the deceased.

----

There is probably also going to be a MAJOR problem of SLN personel who don't wish to go back to the SLN, the League or what is left of it. If they came from or have some connection to a system which has left the League, they might request being released to go there and not though whatever bureaucratic nightmare the handing over of SLN personel to the League/SLN is going to be. Remember, the League and SLN isn't going to be in shuch god shape by that time.
Not saying many of thse people are going to want to stay with Manticore or Haven, but just want to go home which may then be outside the control of the League. Manticore might not want to deal with that hassle but feel compelled to assist people. I will leave that up to RFC:)


You may very well be correct in your assessment Brigade XO, but if you are it could spell doom for our diplomat and his chances of ever seeing a binary system again. I don't get the feeling that Carmichael has very much time at all.

OTOH, I don't understand the League's eagerness to kill him, instead of using him as a bargaining chip. Unless Manticore has a similar pertinent policy as the US.

Though that doesn't discount the possibility of private individuals offering to pay a ransom for Carmichael. If the policies are similar...

The recent report that the United States refused to pay ransom to the kidnappers of journalist James Foley, only weeks before it released Taliban prisoners in exchange for Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, has caused confusion about American policy. On the surface, the policy may seem inconsistent. Why will the United States release prisoners but not pay ransom?

While both cases centered on Americans held captive, there are key differences. Foley was a private citizen held hostage by terrorists, and the United States has made clear that it will not negotiate with terrorists, much less pay ransom for the return of hostages. Bergdahl, on the other hand, was a soldier being held by an enemy at war with the United States. Prisoner exchanges under such circumstances are not uncommon and do not help finance America's enemies.

The policy against negotiating with terrorist kidnappers has its origins in the early 1970s, when terrorists began seizing diplomats and other government officials to attract publicity, win the release of imprisoned comrades or demand cash payments. Initially, the United States took the position that the host country was responsible for the safety of diplomats accredited to it. Therefore, if American diplomats were kidnapped, it was up to these host countries to secure their release. The governments of Brazil, Guatemala, Haiti, Mexico, the Dominican Republic and Colombia have all released prisoners, arranged for the payment of ransom or allowed terrorists to escape in order to secure the safe release of American diplomats.

But attitudes hardened as the tactic proliferated. The U.S. policy of refusing to negotiate with terrorist kidnappers was sealed in blood in 1973 when two U.S. diplomats were taken hostage by the terrorist group Black September in Khartoum, Sudan. The terrorists initially demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, members of the Baader-Meinhof terrorist gang held in Germany, and Sirhan Sirhan, the man who shot Senator Robert F. Kennedy (D-N.Y.).

The United States was willing to talk to the terrorists, but not release a convicted assassin. President Nixon made this clear when asked at a press conference specifically about the demand to release Sirhan. He responded: "As far as the United States as a government giving in to blackmail demands, we cannot do so and we will not do so." News of the president's remarks was broadcast in Sudan, where the terrorists heard them. Hours later they murdered the two Americans along with a Belgian official. The response to a specific question in specific circumstances became general policy. It has been U.S. policy not to make concessions or negotiate with terrorists ever since.

The premise is that yielding to terrorist kidnappers only encourages more kidnapping. However, a RAND study in the 1970s showed little correlation between the negotiating policy and the occurrence or absence of further political kidnappings. The study found that, even when their demands were not met, terrorists derived benefits from kidnappings, including publicity, alarm and throwing governments into crisis. Still, U.S. government officials insisted that terrorists were aware of and affected by the policy.

Hostage situations are political kryptonite that can threaten government survival. This is precisely why a number of European governments are willing to quietly pay cash ransoms and avoid debilitating crises. Many people believe that the inability of the Carter administration to rescue or negotiate the release of Americans taken hostage at the U.S. embassy in Tehran, Iran in 1979 contributed to his defeat in the 1980 presidential election. And the revelation in 1986 that the Reagan administration, in contravention of U.S. policy, had secretly sold arms to Iran in an effort to bring about the release of Americans held hostage by Iran's protégés in Lebanon, caused an embarrassing political scandal. Evasions aside, the policy stands.

U.S. policy does not prohibit private parties from paying ransom. In domestic cases, families routinely negotiate and pay ransoms with the assistance of the FBI, which uses information gained during ransom exchanges to help apprehend kidnapping suspects. And U.S. policy discourages but does not prohibit American families or corporations from paying ransom in kidnapping cases abroad. Whether these private actions contribute to the greater good is arguable, but banning them would expose families to prosecution for doing what they will desperately try to do anyway.

Paying large ransoms to terrorist kidnappers — whether the source of funds is public or private — finances further terrorist operations. The kidnappers of James Foley reportedly sought a ransom of $132 million, among other demands. That is the equivalent of several hundred thousand AK-47s at black market prices or more than 200 times what it cost al Qaeda to carry out the 9/11 attacks. One can only imagine the uproar if it were revealed that the United States had paid millions of dollars to the group it currently regards as the most serious global threat to U.S. national security.

The release of five Taliban leaders in return for the release of Bergdahl after he was taken hostage in Afghanistan is an entirely different matter that had nothing to do with U.S. policy on terrorist kidnappings.

Had the Taliban sought payment of a cash ransom in exchange for Bergdahl, the demand would have been dismissed out of hand. But though controversial, it is not uncommon for the United States to negotiate with enemies to secure the release of prisoners. There are ample precedents, including bringing back American prisoners of war from North Korea and Vietnam.

While prisoner swaps might reward U.S. enemies for capturing U.S. soldiers, they have historically been a necessary part of international conflicts. Just as important, prisoner swaps do not help finance those who seek to harm the United States, either on the battlefield or through terrorism. This is diplomacy. Often controversial, such negotiations often begin in secret, but they do not violate U.S. policy.

Jenkins is senior adviser to the RAND president and the author of "The Dynamics of Syria's Civil War."


SLN personnel wanting to defect is interesting, and humorous, and it would surely give the League a black eye — especially politically if the SEM chooses to highly publicize it. I certainly would in their shoes. It would represent one more cog engaging a sprocket in the Harrington Plan.

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Last edited by cthia on Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:52 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm still interested in what Manticore could realistically do, would do, if Beowulfan officers began to be killed by the SLN? I never said that I thought the League would be so crass, murderous or idiotic. Well, I reserve the right to hold the murderous, idiotic part in abeyance. LOL

But what can be realistically done if the officers' lives were in danger after a few deaths by suspicious causes?
As a practical matter about all I think they could do would be to convene Courts Martial to try any and all captured officers and men involved in any deliberate death of Beowulfan detainees, for violations of the Deneb accords and/or relevant SLN laws or military regulations.

Though if they learn such violations are happening they could certainly attempt to publicize that they would never stop looking for any such people in order to subject them to the fullest extent of the applicable laws.

I don't see any other options either. But would that prompt the League to retaliate? Perhaps beginning with Carmichael?

When you are willing to play by the rules and your enemy isn't, poses a bit of a dilemma.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Beowulfians in the Solarian Navy?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:54 pm

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cthia wrote:SLN personnel wanting to defect is interesting, and humorous, and it would surely give the League a black eye — especially politically if the SEM chooses to highly publicize it. Which I would in their shoes. It would represent one more gear engaging a sprocket in the Harrington Plan.


IIRC, the problem of POWs requesting asylum and/or refusing repatriation after hostilities cease has a historical precedence in the Korean Conflict. A significant percentage of North Korean POWs objected to be repatriated or exchanged for UN POWs.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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