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Treecat roles in next story arc

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Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:13 am

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I am re-reading A Rising Thunder. Sorrow Singer's promise on behalf of all treecats to protect humans against nanotech has me thinking about treecat roles in the next story arc.

'Cats on Sphynx will in large part live their traditional lives. Yes, they will in all likelihood get better tools, but will otherwise live traditional lives. I do suspect their legal status will change from wards of the state to citizens. Will that citizenship look like that of US Native Americans, where they can opt to live on their reservation or be part of the SKM? Will the treecat clans be yet another part of the Empire and they send their ow reps to the Imperial parliament? Not sure, but I am hoping for part of the Empire with the Crown Lands transferred to treecat ownership as a sovereign state.

Black Rock clan's destruction serves as emphatic proof that Samantha's decision to send treecats to Grayson was wise. I believe that more 'cats will move to Manticore and Gryphon. These planets are not their native environment. The picket trees of Sphynx aren't present to support the arboreal life they know. The chemistry is different, so they would need dietary supplements. It would be harder to live traditional treecat lives. The same is true for treecats that may move to the Republic of Haven.

All those 'cats that move away from Sphynx will need to learn human ways and human technology. They will need to be educated. It strikes me that young memory signers may just have a new role in the development of treecat society; students of humanity. They need to study humanity and immerse themselves in human society. Sam's kids in Grayson will in all likelihood be moved to White Haven and they will grow up with Raoul and Katherine. I suspect they will learn to read and accompany the children to school. They and their generation will teach treecats about human society.

When the next story arc resumes, what roles will those treecats take that choose non-traditional lives? There will be treecats in the armed forces, perhaps even the navy. Small clever engineers can get to very tight places. Police officers, child care workers, mental health workers and the list goes on.

What are all your ideas for treecats in the next arc?
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:32 am

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PeterZ wrote:I am re-reading A Rising Thunder. Sorrow Singer's promise on behalf of all treecats to protect humans against nanotech has me thinking about treecat roles in the next story arc.

'Cats on Sphynx will in large part live their traditional lives. Yes, they will in all likelihood get better tools, but will otherwise live traditional lives. I do suspect their legal status will change from wards of the state to citizens. Will that citizenship look like that of US Native Americans, where they can opt to live on their reservation or be part of the SKM? Will the treecat clans be yet another part of the Empire and they send their ow reps to the Imperial parliament? Not sure, but I am hoping for part of the Empire with the Crown Lands transferred to treecat ownership as a sovereign state.

Black Rock clan's destruction serves as emphatic proof that Samantha's decision to send treecats to Grayson was wise. I believe that more 'cats will move to Manticore and Gryphon. These planets are not their native environment. The picket trees of Sphynx aren't present to support the arboreal life they know. The chemistry is different, so they would need dietary supplements. It would be harder to live traditional treecat lives. The same is true for treecats that may move to the Republic of Haven.

All those 'cats that move away from Sphynx will need to learn human ways and human technology. They will need to be educated. It strikes me that young memory signers may just have a new role in the development of treecat society; students of humanity. They need to study humanity and immerse themselves in human society. Sam's kids in Grayson will in all likelihood be moved to White Haven and they will grow up with Raoul and Katherine. I suspect they will learn to read and accompany the children to school. They and their generation will teach treecats about human society.

When the next story arc resumes, what roles will those treecats take that choose non-traditional lives? There will be treecats in the armed forces, perhaps even the navy. Small clever engineers can get to very tight places. Police officers, child care workers, mental health workers and the list goes on.

What are all your ideas for treecats in the next arc?



I think the treecats will still be more or less attached to humans. A lot of humans will still not be able to use sign so they'll probably need to be with them.

Also they do have some limits. I think they might well do some work as engineers...but we don't know how well their minds work that way.

As mental health workers, they would almost certainly need humans to assist. Their minds as we have been told are very different. To them Victor Cachat is perfectly sane, an exemplar. Most people do not want that much directness.

I think they'll be great bodyguards and they'll be good companions but until they start adoptions on the planets there will be hesitation.

If they work to get closer to those with power, that should be interesting. Also, humans are beginning to understand at least of what attracts the cats for adoption. I could see some key people on Haven or Potsdam working to push some chemical changes in their brain.

But an interesting idea...
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:50 am

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This is a very interesting thread with many interesting questions posited. Many I have pondered and touched on myself but I need to let the graph settle a bit more in my head before I can appropriately respond.

However, at this particular moment, I'd like to point out the merging courses between David's Honorverse and the Trek Universe insofar as the incorporation of alien species in the military and civilization. I don't see there ever being another species with enough sentience to incorporate into David's storyline—making it a truly multi-species collaboration as is Gene Roddenberry's world—yet it would represent a significant step in that direction.

I like threads that are willing to peel back the epidermal layer, at least a bit, and perhaps even more for realizing that there is an epidermal layer.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by drothgery   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:19 am

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ldwechsler wrote:I think the treecats will still be more or less attached to humans. A lot of humans will still not be able to use sign so they'll probably need to be with them.

There's no reason they should need to; sign to English machine translation is possible with 21st century technology and ought to be trivial with Honorverse tech. It's only plot concerns keeping it from existing on Sphinx 'now'. Also, 'cats are perfectly capable of reading and writing English.
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:33 am

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cthia wrote:This is a very interesting thread with many interesting questions posited. Many I have pondered and touched on myself but I need to let the graph settle a bit more in my head before I can appropriately respond.

However, at this particular moment, I'd like to point out the merging courses between David's Honorverse and the Trek Universe insofar as the incorporation of alien species in the military and civilization. I don't see there ever being another species with enough sentience to incorporate into David's storyline—making it a truly multi-species collaboration as is Gene Roddenberry's world—yet it would represent a significant step in that direction.

I like threads that are willing to peel back the epidermal layer, at least a bit, and perhaps even more for realizing that there is an epidermal layer.


I agree that there are some very interesting things in this thread.

As for other species, the Medusans were pretty high up on the intelligence scale IIRC. You would need a translator to interact though.

Which brings up that there is an interpreter for the Medusans that incorporated a holographic arm for humans, so why can't there be a translator for cat signs. In 2013 there were articles about a ring and bracelet system for deaf people. Tree cats can understand human speech, so they don't need the speech to words part that the deaf do.


Edit: Forgot the link

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ring-devic ... d=20963684
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:09 am

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drothgery wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I think the treecats will still be more or less attached to humans. A lot of humans will still not be able to use sign so they'll probably need to be with them.

There's no reason they should need to; sign to English machine translation is possible with 21st century technology and ought to be trivial with Honorverse tech. It's only plot concerns keeping it from existing on Sphinx 'now'. Also, 'cats are perfectly capable of reading and writing English.


Plot points are the REASON for my holding back. It would have been easy for RFC to have Nimitz able to fully read Honor's thoughts and the same for other cats with other humans. But he didn't want it that way.

Still, we don't know how well the cats will take to tech. They enjoy its benefits, of course. But will they be able to do the math?

Other species have other ways. My favorite are the Moties from Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (The Mote in God's Eye, etc.). They were variegated by abilities. Each ability was far more advanced than what a human could do but they had their real limits.

I think the same will be the case here. They can be friends, counselors, etc., but based on what we've seen so far, they have some real limits. And only RFC can get past that.

On the other hand, I would not be surprised to see more of them in the next arc. I would guess they'll go to other planets. Haven would welcome them as would many others. That's a good way to save the species.

Also, I would guess that Honor's kid(s) will have treecats. For her bio kids, both parents have them. OF course, that's no guarantee since neither of Honor's parents had one.

But it's fun to discuss.
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:25 am

cthia
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Kizarvexis wrote:
cthia wrote:This is a very interesting thread with many interesting questions posited. Many I have pondered and touched on myself but I need to let the graph settle a bit more in my head before I can appropriately respond.

However, at this particular moment, I'd like to point out the merging courses between David's Honorverse and the Trek Universe insofar as the incorporation of alien species in the military and civilization. I don't see there ever being another species with enough sentience to incorporate into David's storyline—making it a truly multi-species collaboration as is Gene Roddenberry's world—yet it would represent a significant step in that direction.

I like threads that are willing to peel back the epidermal layer, at least a bit, and perhaps even more for realizing that there is an epidermal layer.


I agree that there are some very interesting things in this thread.

As for other species, the Medusans were pretty high up on the intelligence scale IIRC. You would need a translator to interact though.

Which brings up that there is an interpreter for the Medusans that incorporated a holographic arm for humans, so why can't there be a translator for cat signs. In 2013 there were articles about a ring and bracelet system for deaf people. Tree cats can understand human speech, so they don't need the speech to words part that the deaf do.


Edit: Forgot the link

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ring-devic ... d=20963684


Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit. The Mudusans are the only other possible pivot point. TBH, I never considered the Medusans to be intelligent enough to function within the navy, yet. In fact, it may be rushing it to think they can perform satisfactorily in society, yet. Although Estelle Matsuko certainly may have more faith in them than I -- as far as being possible contributors to society. Their civilization isn't far removed from Bronze Age humanity and many a divide has to be bridged before we can send them to the Academy. Acceptance within society should be the more immediate goal, I'd think. But they certainly should have the potential -- considering that humanity itself, some of us anyways, have managed to progress beyond Stone Age man.

Even so, their awkward body design seems just as much a hindrance. But then on reflection, the series of Star Trek: Titan novels has a male Horta character, Chwolkk, who serves as an engineer on the USS Titan.

Leading to the premise that if a body design as has the Hortas can be adapted to Starfleet life, then perhaps the sky is the limit. Good point Kizarvexis.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:50 am

cthia
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Posts: 7603
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

PeterZ wrote:I am re-reading A Rising Thunder. Sorrow Singer's promise on behalf of all treecats to protect humans against nanotech has me thinking about treecat roles in the next story arc.

'Cats on Sphynx will in large part live their traditional lives. Yes, they will in all likelihood get better tools, but will otherwise live traditional lives. I do suspect their legal status will change from wards of the state to citizens. Will that citizenship look like that of US Native Americans, where they can opt to live on their reservation or be part of the SKM? Will the treecat clans be yet another part of the Empire and they send their ow reps to the Imperial parliament? Not sure, but I am hoping for part of the Empire with the Crown Lands transferred to treecat ownership as a sovereign state.

Black Rock clan's destruction serves as emphatic proof that Samantha's decision to send treecats to Grayson was wise. I believe that more 'cats will move to Manticore and Gryphon. These planets are not their native environment. The picket trees of Sphynx aren't present to support the arboreal life they know. The chemistry is different, so they would need dietary supplements. It would be harder to live traditional treecat lives. The same is true for treecats that may move to the Republic of Haven.

All those 'cats that move away from Sphynx will need to learn human ways and human technology. They will need to be educated. It strikes me that young memory signers may just have a new role in the development of treecat society; students of humanity. They need to study humanity and immerse themselves in human society. Sam's kids in Grayson will in all likelihood be moved to White Haven and they will grow up with Raoul and Katherine. I suspect they will learn to read and accompany the children to school. They and their generation will teach treecats about human society.

When the next story arc resumes, what roles will those treecats take that choose non-traditional lives? There will be treecats in the armed forces, perhaps even the navy. Small clever engineers can get to very tight places. Police officers, child care workers, mental health workers and the list goes on.

What are all your ideas for treecats in the next arc?
My bold of two sections of your post to focus thought.

I sure hope you are correct on this account or I be so sad. Yet general consensus seems to be that the next story arc won't get to deal with the MAlign, which makes the treecat's pledge to be instrumental in dealing with them seem more remote if the MAlign are out of the arc. Although there could be more assassination attempts via the nanotech without actually having to deal with the MAN or the MAlign itself.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by drothgery   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:56 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
drothgery wrote:There's no reason they should need to; sign to English machine translation is possible with 21st century technology and ought to be trivial with Honorverse tech. It's only plot concerns keeping it from existing on Sphinx 'now'. Also, 'cats are perfectly capable of reading and writing English.


Plot points are the REASON for my holding back. It would have been easy for RFC to have Nimitz able to fully read Honor's thoughts and the same for other cats with other humans. But he didn't want it that way.

It's one thing to limit treecats' native abilities for plot reasons, or even to limit future tech development in some areas. It's another thing to not give 20th century PD Manticorans technology than 21st century AD humans already have.
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Re: Treecat roles in next story arc
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:05 pm

cthia
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drothgery wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I think the treecats will still be more or less attached to humans. A lot of humans will still not be able to use sign so they'll probably need to be with them.

There's no reason they should need to; sign to English machine translation is possible with 21st century technology and ought to be trivial with Honorverse tech. It's only plot concerns keeping it from existing on Sphinx 'now'. Also, 'cats are perfectly capable of reading and writing English.
ldwechsler wrote:Plot points are the REASON for my holding back. It would have been easy for RFC to have Nimitz able to fully read Honor's thoughts and the same for other cats with other humans. But he didn't want it that way.

Still, we don't know how well the cats will take to tech. They enjoy its benefits, of course. But will they be able to do the math?

Other species have other ways. My favorite are the Moties from Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (The Mote in God's Eye, etc.). They were variegated by abilities. Each ability was far more advanced than what a human could do but they had their real limits.

I think the same will be the case here. They can be friends, counselors, etc., but based on what we've seen so far, they have some real limits. And only RFC can get past that.

On the other hand, I would not be surprised to see more of them in the next arc. I would guess they'll go to other planets. Haven would welcome them as would many others. That's a good way to save the species.

Also, I would guess that Honor's kid(s) will have treecats. For her bio kids, both parents have them. OF course, that's no guarantee since neither of Honor's parents had one.

But it's fun to discuss.
My bold.

Your timing is awesome. Just rereading a couple chapters of SVW for another thread.

SVW: Chapter Twenty-Eight wrote:
Honor closed the message file on her screen, tipped hack her chair, and sipped her cocoa with a sense of mingled relief and regret. Yesterday's unexpected arrival of the light cruiser Anubis with dispatches from Admiral Danislav had brought Admiral Sarnow (and his flag captain) up to date on the latest information available to the Admiralty, and that information was downright frightening. There was no longer any doubt, in the Admiralty's view, that the PRH intended to launch an all-out attack . . . soon.

Honor agreed, and that agreement left her more worried than ever by Parks' dispersal. But at least Danislav had also confirmed that his dreadnought squadron, reinforced by an extra division the Admiralty had scared up, would arrive in a maximum of seventy-two hours. Unfortunately, Danislav had a reputation as an unimaginative, though determined, tactician . . . and he was senior to Sarnow.

She grimaced at the thought. Even with his ten dreadnoughts, Danislav was going to be far too weak to hold the system against serious attack. He'd need all the imagination he could find, and she hoped he'd have the sense to recognize Sarnow's capabilities and rely upon them.

Unlike Parks.

She grimaced again and rolled another sip of cocoa over her tongue. Nimitz made a soft sound, and she smiled as he yawned, twitched his ears, and stretched along his perch, curling his tail in an oddly disdainful gesture to express his own opinion of Parks.

"My sentiments exactly," she told him with a chuckle. Much though she respected Nimitz's intelligence, she entertained no illusions about his ability to judge an admiral's fitness for command. Except, of course, when his judgment matched hers.
Bold is mine to call attention

Honor was thinking internally. How was Nimitz aware that she was thinking specifically about Pavel Young's command ability without actually being able to read minds?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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