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Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorverse

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Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorverse
Post by SouthernWolf   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:41 pm

SouthernWolf
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Greetings, all.

I was re-reading some the of the older books, when I happened across some minute things that were mentioned, but then either went nowhere or weren't updated as the series progress. Two things come to mind; both in OBS. First, that HMS Fearless had a "60cm spinal laser." Second, and to the intended point of this thread, that Manticore had an economy on par with nearly 70% of Old Sol itself.

In the first place, why would a weapon that seems to serve no purpose be mentioned? Even then, the series focused on ECM, missile duels, and broadside energy slug matches if an engagement was forced. Yet, nowhere else in the series can I see anything about a spinal laser, what its specs are, and we don't have any examples of its use in combat. What are y'alls thoughts on this?

Onto economics! If Manticore started the series at ~70% of Sol's output, how much had that changed until the Oyster Bay/Yawata Strike [OB/YS]? We know that event gutted their industrial capacity, as well as those of Grayson, but what are the projections for the new manufacturies and shipyards being built? Will Manticore eclipse humanity's home system? Had they already, especially with the discovery of the Lynx Terminus? For that matter how much had the other players (ie Haven, Grayson, Potsdam) developed relative to the Old Sol? I'd love to see a chart of each of these Powers' starting bases relative to Sol at the start of the series and then entries for Pre-OB/YS and Post OB/YS if there is one available in official records. My desired endstate is to have a benchmark for how far each of these nations have come with official numbers and where they stand as the SL-MAilign-MA War begins.
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm

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SouthernWolf wrote:Greetings, all.

I was re-reading some the of the older books, when I happened across some minute things that were mentioned, but then either went nowhere or weren't updated as the series progress. Two things come to mind; both in OBS. First, that HMS Fearless had a "60cm spinal laser." Second, and to the intended point of this thread, that Manticore had an economy on par with nearly 70% of Old Sol itself.

In the first place, why would a weapon that seems to serve no purpose be mentioned? Even then, the series focused on ECM, missile duels, and broadside energy slug matches if an engagement was forced. Yet, nowhere else in the series can I see anything about a spinal laser, what its specs are, and we don't have any examples of its use in combat. What are y'alls thoughts on this?

Onto economics! If Manticore started the series at ~70% of Sol's output, how much had that changed until the Oyster Bay/Yawata Strike [OB/YS]? We know that event gutted their industrial capacity, as well as those of Grayson, but what are the projections for the new manufacturies and shipyards being built? Will Manticore eclipse humanity's home system? Had they already, especially with the discovery of the Lynx Terminus? For that matter how much had the other players (ie Haven, Grayson, Potsdam) developed relative to the Old Sol? I'd love to see a chart of each of these Powers' starting bases relative to Sol at the start of the series and then entries for Pre-OB/YS and Post OB/YS if there is one available in official records. My desired endstate is to have a benchmark for how far each of these nations have come with official numbers and where they stand as the SL-MAilign-MA War begins.


You ask a lot of good questions and I can assure you they probably will never be answered. The focus of the last book has to be on the fighting. Yes, there will be some economics but you might have noticed that the last few books have focused on economics within the Solarian League.

That's the way things tend to go in this universe. There's a real lot of story. So much that a lot of things are just touched on a bit.
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by SouthernWolf   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:31 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
You ask a lot of good questions and I can assure you they probably will never be answered. The focus of the last book has to be on the fighting. Yes, there will be some economics but you might have noticed that the last few books have focused on economics within the Solarian League.

That's the way things tend to go in this universe. There's a real lot of story. So much that a lot of things are just touched on a bit.


Thanks. I had noticed that, but I had hoped that the information would be in some anthology I hadn't discovered yet...
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:06 pm

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SouthernWolf wrote:Greetings, all.

I was re-reading some the of the older books, when I happened across some minute things that were mentioned, but then either went nowhere or weren't updated as the series progress. Two things come to mind; both in OBS. First, that HMS Fearless had a "60cm spinal laser." Second, and to the intended point of this thread, that Manticore had an economy on par with nearly 70% of Old Sol itself.

In the first place, why would a weapon that seems to serve no purpose be mentioned? Even then, the series focused on ECM, missile duels, and broadside energy slug matches if an engagement was forced. Yet, nowhere else in the series can I see anything about a spinal laser, what its specs are, and we don't have any examples of its use in combat. What are y'alls thoughts on this?
That 60 cm laser is part of the Courageous class's chase armorment (which I believe other parts of the books say are usually a ship's heaviest beam weapons)

The SITS shipbook (which have more details on the weapons carried, for the handful of classes they describe, than the later more broad House of Steel) confirms a normal Courageous class CL's hammerhead carries as a chase (aka spinal) energy mount a 60cm laser (plus 2 missile tubes, 2 CM tubes, and 2 PDLC mounts)

But you're correct that chase energy mounts rarely get used; even with the single drive missile ranges from the beginning of the series. Yet virtually all hyper capable warships still carry energy mounts facing fore and aft in their respective hammerheads. (The one exception I stumbled across is the flight II Hydra class CLACs) Just in case somebody manages to cross their T at close range - or the very rare mid grav-wave combat happens (where missiles can't be used). Though I seem to recall David saying somewhere that the chase PDLCs and even chase energy mounts can get automatically used if sensor detect space debris is the flight path that's too heavy for the rad screen to shunt aside - so that may be another reason to devote the relatives small area (compared to another missile tube) in the hammerheads to at least one energy mount.
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by Theemile   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:09 pm

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SouthernWolf wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:
You ask a lot of good questions and I can assure you they probably will never be answered. The focus of the last book has to be on the fighting. Yes, there will be some economics but you might have noticed that the last few books have focused on economics within the Solarian League.

That's the way things tend to go in this universe. There's a real lot of story. So much that a lot of things are just touched on a bit.


Thanks. I had noticed that, but I had hoped that the information would be in some anthology I hadn't discovered yet...


Actually spinal weapons are used quite commonly, now that bow walls and Buckler's exist. The Shrike have a 150 cm spinal graser, which is their main weapon. The Saganami C has several 300+ cm spinal grasers which Terekhov used to evicerate a Mars C Cruiser in Shadow of Saganami.

The size of the apature of the weapon is in relation to it's power, with lasers hitting more like a stelleto and grasers more like a crushing sledgehammer.

And "spinal" is just the position, with that position using the length of the ship to allow longer weapons (which corresponds to the weapon's appature). It also means that the energy weapons covering the unprotected ends of the ship (early in the series) are by far the most powerful on the ship, forcing anyone who wishes to take advantage of the fore and aft wedge openings in an energy dual, to be engaged by these heavy weapons.

If you follow the series, you will find that Manticore is slowly increasing the armament sizes in it's ships- currently the Roland destroyers have 150 cm Grasers, which are also the main armament of the Shrike LAC, and the Spinal Graser mounted in the Homer class BC at the time of OBS.

It is also important to note that Manticore's tech edge allows their ships to mount more, larger energy weapons than rivals. Opponent's weapons are simply larger and have more support equipment inside the hull, causing them to mount fewer, smaller weapons on a class by class basis. In the errata for the sits game, there is a story of an encounter in Silesia where a Manty DD has a running energy dual with a Silesian pirate CA nearly 3x it's size... And wins - because the CA actually fielded a lighter energy armament than the RMN ship.

So the detail was not extraeous.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by MaxxQ   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:56 pm

MaxxQ
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Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

SouthernWolf wrote:Greetings, all.

I was re-reading some the of the older books, when I happened across some minute things that were mentioned, but then either went nowhere or weren't updated as the series progress. Two things come to mind; both in OBS. First, that HMS Fearless had a "60cm spinal laser." Second, and to the intended point of this thread, that Manticore had an economy on par with nearly 70% of Old Sol itself.

In the first place, why would a weapon that seems to serve no purpose be mentioned? Even then, the series focused on ECM, missile duels, and broadside energy slug matches if an engagement was forced. Yet, nowhere else in the series can I see anything about a spinal laser, what its specs are, and we don't have any examples of its use in combat. What are y'alls thoughts on this?


Everyone else answered this question more or less accurately, so since you're new here (at least, posting-wise - don't know how long you've been lurking), I figure it's time to mention that if you'd like to see an example of spinal mount weapons, go here: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/S ... -475462450

Granted, it's the Star Knight class Fearless, and not Honor's Courageous class Fearless from OBS, but notice the four ports on the face of the hammerhead. The bottom center one is the laser (the other three ports are missile tubes). I'm being too lazy to look it up on my spreadsheet, but the aperture is probably around 120-130cm.

While I'm here, I figure I'll also mention something else, for anyone who might be interested. I'm sure everyone in the know has noticed that I haven't posted any new models in the last couple years. Well, as of last weekend, I've slowly been starting up modeling again, and while I probably won't have any new ships to post, I will, in the somewhat near future, be posting updated images of the SK Fearless.

Tom Pope and the rest of BuNine and I have been adding details to many of the details on the ship. We're also updating and changing some of the major bits, like the superstructure, the hammerheads, and so on. Basically, we're fleshing out things like the EW panels, weapons telemetry panels, RCS thrusters, escape pod hatch covers, the grav array, PDLC clusters and CM tubes, and so on. Basically, this means these areas will be a bit more interesting to look at, rather than looking fairly plain and boring as they currently are now. Overall, the ship will look the same, but will be more detailed. Once all of that is settled, it will all migrate to the other ships I currently have built, and only then will I move on to ships not built yet.

We've also been adding markings, and if I have my way, I'll be completely redesigning the missile tubes, as well as the magazines and loading sequence.

So, expect new uploads sometime in the next couple months (hopefully).

I've always said that even though the models are canon, they are subject to change...
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:14 am

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MaxxQ wrote:Everyone else answered this question more or less accurately, so since you're new here (at least, posting-wise - don't know how long you've been lurking), I figure it's time to mention that if you'd like to see an example of spinal mount weapons, go here: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/S ... -475462450

Granted, it's the Star Knight class Fearless, and not Honor's Courageous class Fearless from OBS, but notice the four ports on the face of the hammerhead. The bottom center one is the laser (the other three ports are missile tubes). I'm being too lazy to look it up on my spreadsheet, but the aperture is probably around 120-130cm.
My cheat sheet says Jaynes & SITS had the Star Knight chase lasers listed as 127cm -- so good memory.
(Though of course the Star Knight entry was the most heavily revised/corrected for House of Steel; so it's not impossible that you BuNine guys realized that the laser's size/power also needed revision/correction [G]. )

I look forward to updated renders from you as you get a chance to make them. (And had it really been that long since you'd posted some? Where does the time go?)
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:18 am

MaxxQ
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Jonathan_S wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:Everyone else answered this question more or less accurately, so since you're new here (at least, posting-wise - don't know how long you've been lurking), I figure it's time to mention that if you'd like to see an example of spinal mount weapons, go here: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/S ... -475462450

Granted, it's the Star Knight class Fearless, and not Honor's Courageous class Fearless from OBS, but notice the four ports on the face of the hammerhead. The bottom center one is the laser (the other three ports are missile tubes). I'm being too lazy to look it up on my spreadsheet, but the aperture is probably around 120-130cm.
My cheat sheet says Jaynes & SITS had the Star Knight chase lasers listed as 127cm -- so good memory.
(Though of course the Star Knight entry was the most heavily revised/corrected for House of Steel; so it's not impossible that you BuNine guys realized that the laser's size/power also needed revision/correction [G]. )

I look forward to updated renders from you as you get a chance to make them. (And had it really been that long since you'd posted some? Where does the time go?)


Heh... more like a lucky guess. My memory isn't quite what it used to be.

And yeah, it's been about three years since I last posted any renders - oddly enough, just OVER three years since I started the thread that I just necro'd.
=================

DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by SouthernWolf   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:41 am

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Thanks for the replies, y'all. I hadn't noticed that the spinal mounts were the same type energy weapons and calibers as every thing else. I thought that was its own weapon system and mixing up my sci fi lores. When I see spinal-mount/spinal-lazer, I think of a dual purpose system functioning both as a weapon system an actual spinal support structure for the rest of the ship. I didn't realize if was just placement here, but that does make a lot of sense in this series. I thought of the LACs and their spinal lazers as well, but also thought of those separate from regular warships (if only because of their size), but with them mounting the same type and caliber energy mount as an SD, I should have caught that earlier. Again thanks for all the help!

What about the economic standings raised in my second question in the original post?
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Re: Economics (past, present, and predicted) in the Honorver
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:24 am

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SouthernWolf wrote:Thanks for the replies, y'all.
snip

What about the economic standings raised in my second question in the original post?


I am not sure the measure you seek will be beneficial in any meaningful way. Sol's wealth is predicated on the economic friction surrounding the massive revenue flows from collecting League fees and taxes. Yes, Sol has industry, but its wealth is not driven by industry. After the League has been destroyed, Sol's economic might will be much smaller than the Old Kingdom.

A better measure is to use a system's population as a base measure of economic power and adjust for the base technology. I have seen posters equate the average core world as similar to the average Andermani world and perhaps slightly ahead of the average Havenite world. The SKM (Old Kingdom) is well ahead of all of them on a per capita basis.

Using that assumption, the SEM aggregate GS(s)Ps (Gross Systems' Product) will likely grow much more quickly than a comparably populated collection Verge worlds. In a few decades, the SEM will have a greater GS(s)P than a similar number of Core worlds. The Alliance members will be somewhere between the SEM and the old Core worlds on a per capita bases. Their populations will likely be smaller than Core worlds.

The exact numbers will be vague enough to allow RFC to write an interesting story.
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