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The politics of short-stopping firepower

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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:29 pm

Theemile
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Jonathan_S wrote:
John Prigent wrote:Case Zulu means 'invasion imminent'. Wouldn't all those receiving that message immediately look to see where it originated and make tracks to the threatened place IF FEASIBLE? Clearly only those within reach are expected to respond, for others it simply ISN'T feasible.

Cheers, John
Well, no. They'd still have to consider what system was threatened with invasion and what their other command priories were.

Certainly the entirety of home fleet didn't instantly come screaming into Basilisk in response to Honor's Case Zulu - though it was certainly feasible for them to have quickly reached Basilisk.

Even in time of peace only a couple squadrons of wallers were detached and sent -- just in case the whole thing was a feint to leave the home system under-defended for the Peep's classic surprise knockout blow.



Obviously that's an extreme example, but similar logic would need to apply to any commander learning of an imminent invasion of Manitocoran territory.
What can I send without unduly risking my other obligations?
Would a force that size simply be throwing good money after bad? (IOW do I need to wait for reinforcements to concentrate to avoid having all the relieving forces defeated in detail)




And in a lot of a ways cthia's scenario of a Case Zulu against the Manticoran home system is one in which you seem to need the least manditory response planning because the Admiralty is right there to quickly dispatch specific orders to any units within range to respond; thanks to the wormhole junction.

Yeah, the large forces at the major termini would start making contingency plans to reinforce Manticore - and possibly concentrating more of their forces near their terminus. But the initial Case Zulu would be expected to be shortly followed by more detailed orders - removing the need for them to react in an ad hoc and uncoordinated manner. For most termini the bulk of the forces in the system couldn't have physically made it to their wormhole (since a lot of the mobile forces are in-system defending the planets and stations - not stationed out at the terminus - before specific follow-on orders could be received)


One would think that the Admirality would have a "Case Zulu" instruction plan concerning the junction forces. Since the main mobile force at the wormhole termini is usually at the Manticore Junction it would probably have instructions on how to deal with a Case Zulu from one of the Termini, and would start implementing those at the Commander's discretion, while forwarding the alert to the Admirality and awaiting for further, refined orders. Other termini, like Trevor's Star, have large enough pickets to also be able protect their charge and backup another terminus, So would also have pre-set instructions they would act upon.

Preferably, depending on the threat, as the Admirality, I would move portions or all of the Junction mobile force to the threat Terminus, while moving the pre-arranged "Case-Zulu" response forces from the un-threatened termini to the Junction for quick re-deployment as necessary.

It takes awhile to move the tin around, so the Admirality will have time to assess the situation and relay specific updated orders to all the Manticore and terminus forces, but SOME pre-planned orders for the junction forces (which specify the levels of forces to be moved) would allow for the quickest response to any threat, while not having everyone just running to the sound of gunfire.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:30 pm

cthia
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John Prigent wrote:Case Zulu means 'invasion imminent'. Wouldn't all those receiving that message immediately look to see where it originated and make tracks to the threatened place IF FEASIBLE? Clearly only those within reach are expected to respond, for others it simply ISN'T feasible.

Cheers, John

I suppose we should formally establish that a Case Zulu may center around other systems than Manticore.

Given that, I agree with you John. I would even go so far as to say Case Zulu primitives preexist in the Handbook regarding a specific command's responsibilities. "Hmm, the Handbook says in the Case of a Case Zulu ordered for Grayson, I am NOT to proceed because of my location but that I AM to proceed to move my forces "thus so" in an effort to strategically resettle the plot and take up the slack pursuant to Case Zulu regulations and our charge to protect our allies."

In a nutshell, ship A moves to support Grayson. Ship B moves to replace ship A.

Very interesting to consider the what, where and how of a Case Zulu.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:38 pm

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Theemile wrote:
One would think that the Admirality would have a "Case Zulu" instruction plan concerning the junction forces. Since the main mobile force at the wormhole termini is usually at the Manticore Junction it would probably have instructions on how to deal with a Case Zulu from one of the Termini, and would start implementing those at the Commander's discretion, while forwarding the alert to the Admirality and awaiting for further, refined orders. Other termini, like Trevor's Star, have large enough pickets to also be able protect their charge and backup another terminus, So would also have pre-set instructions they would act upon.

Preferably, depending on the threat, as the Admirality, I would move portions or all of the Junction mobile force to the threat Terminus, while moving the pre-arranged "Case-Zulu" response forces from the un-threatened termini to the Junction for quick re-deployment as necessary.

It takes awhile to move the tin around, so the Admirality will have time to assess the situation and relay specific updated orders to all the Manticore and terminus forces, but SOME pre-planned orders for the junction forces (which specify the levels of forces to be moved) would allow for the quickest response to any threat, while not having everyone just running to the sound of gunfire.

Yes, I'll agree there are probable (frequently updated) plans for general alert activies once a Case Zulu has been issued for Manticore or one of it's immediate termini.

Though I guess in the era of Hermes bouys the need for that is somewhat reduced as the Junction is now ~ 7 minutes comm time from Manticore rather than 7 hours (assuming you aren't playing games with microjumping couriers to speed up message delivery).


Pre-Hermes forces stationed at the a junction or terminus could react 14 hours faster than the Admiralty could issue them orders - so some level of autonomous action makes sense. On the other hand, part of the reason Manticore invested so heavily in Junction forts was to avoid having to keep a significant portion of home fleet parked out there (though there was that period where they were out there while MDM capable forts were built to replace the obsolete ones that had been stood down after the capture of Trevor's Star) - so while they can react fast there may not be much weight of metal parked by a terminus to react quickly (relative to even speed of light communication)...
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:19 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:
One would think that the Admirality would have a "Case Zulu" instruction plan concerning the junction forces. Since the main mobile force at the wormhole termini is usually at the Manticore Junction it would probably have instructions on how to deal with a Case Zulu from one of the Termini, and would start implementing those at the Commander's discretion, while forwarding the alert to the Admirality and awaiting for further, refined orders. Other termini, like Trevor's Star, have large enough pickets to also be able protect their charge and backup another terminus, So would also have pre-set instructions they would act upon.

Preferably, depending on the threat, as the Admirality, I would move portions or all of the Junction mobile force to the threat Terminus, while moving the pre-arranged "Case-Zulu" response forces from the un-threatened termini to the Junction for quick re-deployment as necessary.

It takes awhile to move the tin around, so the Admirality will have time to assess the situation and relay specific updated orders to all the Manticore and terminus forces, but SOME pre-planned orders for the junction forces (which specify the levels of forces to be moved) would allow for the quickest response to any threat, while not having everyone just running to the sound of gunfire.

Yes, I'll agree there are probable (frequently updated) plans for general alert activies once a Case Zulu has been issued for Manticore or one of it's immediate termini.

Though I guess in the era of Hermes bouys the need for that is somewhat reduced as the Junction is now ~ 7 minutes comm time from Manticore rather than 7 hours (assuming you aren't playing games with microjumping couriers to speed up message delivery).


Pre-Hermes forces stationed at the a junction or terminus could react 14 hours faster than the Admiralty could issue them orders - so some level of autonomous action makes sense. On the other hand, part of the reason Manticore invested so heavily in Junction forts was to avoid having to keep a significant portion of home fleet parked out there (though there was that period where they were out there while MDM capable forts were built to replace the obsolete ones that had been stood down after the capture of Trevor's Star) - so while they can react fast there may not be much weight of metal parked by a terminus to react quickly (relative to even speed of light communication)...

Junction forces seem a given to be part of a quick response force. In case of a "warning" (enemy ships already in system) and not a "watch" (invasion imminent), there must exist the contingency of a quick response or Home Fleet could be hung out to dry.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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