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The politics of short-stopping firepower

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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:16 pm

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I wonder if shortstopping comes to a head during a Case Zulu. Alarms are sent out through the junctions drawing all manner of firepower away from that system. I always wondered how the global plot tried to strategically reconfigure and settle itself out of the chaos of the remaining ships left on the periphery who are not to immediately advance to the Home system, and must spread out and hold the lines. Which may make conditions ripe for COs on the spot to shortstop and redistribute.

Besides, any Case Zulu could be a faint and an attack could come elsewhere.


Question.

During a Case Zulu, who is required to head home and who is to remain on station?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by saber964   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:05 pm

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cthia wrote:I wonder if shortstopping comes to a head during a Case Zulu. Alarms are sent out through the junctions drawing all manner of firepower away from that system. I always wondered how the global plot tried to strategically reconfigure and settle itself out of the chaos of the remaining ships left on the periphery who are not to immediately advance to the Home system, and must spread out and hold the lines. Which may make conditions ripe for COs on the spot to shortstop and redistribute.

Besides, any Case Zulu could be a faint and an attack could come elsewhere.


Question.

During a Case Zulu, who is required to head home and who is to remain on station?



It's an immediate response. Spindle was informed but was a month in response time IIRC VADM O'Mally didn't make from Lynx because he was to far away to respond.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:23 pm

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saber964 wrote:
cthia wrote:I wonder if shortstopping comes to a head during a Case Zulu. Alarms are sent out through the junctions drawing all manner of firepower away from that system. I always wondered how the global plot tried to strategically reconfigure and settle itself out of the chaos of the remaining ships left on the periphery who are not to immediately advance to the Home system, and must spread out and hold the lines. Which may make conditions ripe for COs on the spot to shortstop and redistribute.

Besides, any Case Zulu could be a faint and an attack could come elsewhere.


Question.

During a Case Zulu, who is required to head home and who is to remain on station?



It's an immediate response. Spindle was informed but was a month in response time IIRC VADM O'Mally didn't make from Lynx because he was to far away to respond.


What was in O'Mally's OrBat?

He couldn't have pushed it and shaved off a week? And, we're going to be presumptuous and decide that the first battle of its kind won't last a month? LOL

But what if it does?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:47 pm

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Shortstopping... Commandeering by higher ranked officers can lead to this...

Shortly before the First Battle of Hancock, Young and Warlock were assigned to Heavy Cruiser Squadron 17, where Young became the senior squadron captain. He and Commander Arthur Houseman conspired to worsen Commodore Van Slyke's opinion of Captain Harrington. During the Battle of Hancock, after Van Slyke was killed and Harrington failed to order the Task Force to scatter, he ordered the squadron to do so out of fear of destruction. He was the only captain who failed to return to formation when Harrington ordered it.


Because he outranked Harrington and felt he had a legal right to assume command by commandeering, by shortstopping all of Harrington's "inherited" command.

The very fine legal line irked me while reading. Yet, this is the kind of thing that can happen with a situation that is based on merit. Having a Pavel Young or an Elvis Santino with access to this kind of power can bite you in the ass but good!

CASE IN POINT!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Duckk   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:56 pm

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That example is really stretching the meaning of "commandeering", compared to the other examples in this topic.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:02 pm

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cthia wrote:
saber964 wrote:
It's an immediate response. Spindle was informed but was a month in response time IIRC VADM O'Mally didn't make from Lynx because he was to far away to respond.


What was in O'Mally's OrBat?

He couldn't have pushed it and shaved off a week? And, we're going to be presumptuous and decide that the first battle of its kind won't last a month? LOL

But what if it does?


O'Malley was detached directly from Home Fleet with a mixed squadron of RMN BCs and GSN BC(p)s, as well as 2 divisions of CLACs, escorts, and support ships. He was not assigned to Lynx until his return. At the time of the case Zulu, the Lynx terminus was covered by a handful of light cruisers and destroyers, which did not respond, but passed the alarm directly to Manticore. The Terminus was in turn reinforced by 2 squadrons of non-KH Medusa's post case Zulu. Don't forget, the case Zulu was 2 part. One was an invasion warning, the second was the notification that Terekhov's force was going to attempt to stop it.

The case Zulu was answered by the highest command levels in the RMN, and ships were moving on to Monica and Lynx with hours of the receipt.

Whether the initial battle was won or lost, the RMN had to respond and assume the worst case senarios in their response. For all they knew, the Monica BCs destroyed Terekhov's squadron, Savaged the Hercules with pods, and were either on their way to Lynx, or were still covering the Monica system in force and would need to be dealt with.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:22 pm

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Duckk wrote:That example is really stretching the meaning of "commandeering", compared to the other examples in this topic.


Don't shoot the messenger.

Indeed it is Duckk.

Like I said, all through reading about the tangled mess I was irked, because ESSENTIALLY this is exactly what Young thought. Young's FEAR gripped him. And he quickly assessed the problem in his head as imminent death has a way of focusing one's mind.

HARRINGTON—who he outranked militarily and socially (baseborn bitch)—does not have the right to order HIS death! Unless you will argue that it hadn't crossed his mind that he outranked her? Having assessed that, HE had the right to call the shots. It was clear-cut to Young, and Young's thoughts were what mattered to Young. Not Duckk's or cthia's. Which, again, essentially is commandeering by rank; if only in his head. Can't change a rose by the color of its name.

So yes, it is stretching the meaning of it. Intentional on my part. Don't shoot me for pointing out what essentially formed the basis of Young's ignorance and cowardice. An appalling act and example of the human element.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:30 pm

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cthia wrote:
Duckk wrote:That example is really stretching the meaning of "commandeering", compared to the other examples in this topic.


Don't shoot the messenger.

Indeed it is Duckk.

Like I said, all through reading about the tangled mess I was irked, because ESSENTIALLY this is exactly what Young thought. Young's FEAR gripped him. And he quickly assessed the problem in his head as imminent death has a way of focusing one's mind.

HARRINGTON—who he outranked militarily and socially (baseborn bitch)—does not have the right to order HIS death! Unless you will argue that it hadn't crossed his mind that he outranked her? Having assessed that, HE had the right to call the shots. It was clear-cut to Young, and Young's thoughts were what mattered to Young. Not Duckk's or cthia's. Which, again, essentially is commandeering by rank; if only in his head. Can't change a rose by the color of its name.

So yes, it is stretching the meaning of it. Intentional on my part. Don't shoot me for pointing out what essentially formed the basis of Young's ignorance and cowardice. An appalling act and example of the human element.



The problem with all this is Young didn't know ( or even think) he was suborning anything from Honor. As far as he knew, the command came from Sarnow, who WAS in charge. Honor neglected to mention he had been incapicated and continued on, following his previous command.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:43 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
Duckk wrote:That example is really stretching the meaning of "commandeering", compared to the other examples in this topic.


Don't shoot the messenger.

Indeed it is Duckk.

Like I said, all through reading about the tangled mess I was irked, because ESSENTIALLY this is exactly what Young thought. Young's FEAR gripped him. And he quickly assessed the problem in his head as imminent death has a way of focusing one's mind.

HARRINGTON—who he outranked militarily and socially (baseborn bitch)—does not have the right to order HIS death! Unless you will argue that it hadn't crossed his mind that he outranked her? Having assessed that, HE had the right to call the shots. It was clear-cut to Young, and Young's thoughts were what mattered to Young. Not Duckk's or cthia's. Which, again, essentially is commandeering by rank; if only in his head. Can't change a rose by the color of its name.

So yes, it is stretching the meaning of it. Intentional on my part. Don't shoot me for pointing out what essentially formed the basis of Young's ignorance and cowardice. An appalling act and example of the human element.
Theemile wrote:The problem with all this is Young didn't know ( or even think) he was suborning anything from Honor. As far as he knew, the command came from Sarnow, who WAS in charge. Honor neglected to mention he had been incapicated and continued on, following his previous command.


Not sure I agree with that in its entirety. He didn't know that Sarnow was incapacitated, no. But he did know that their communications had been destroyed. Which left it up to Honor (as far as Young would accept) to presume to know or accurately guess what Sarnow's last orders were to be. That is the point of Young's shortstopping. The right to "guess" as far as Young was concerned, about what Sarnow's intentions actually were.

And to Pavel Young, this was his right to do. After all, there was no way that that call made any sense to him. Which means it had to be Harrington's interpretation, bloodthirsty bitch she is, and NOT Sarnows.

I should have a reread to get a better feel and to appease my memory.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:06 pm

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cthia wrote:Not sure I agree with that in its entirety. He didn't know that Sarnow was incapacitated, no. But he did know that their communications had been destroyed. Which left it up to Honor (as far as Young would accept) to presume to know or accurately guess what Sarnow's last orders were to be. That is the point of Young's shortstopping. The right to "guess" as far as Young was concerned, about what Sarnow's intentions actually were.

And to Pavel Young, this was his right to do. After all, there was no way that that call made any sense to him. Which means it had to be Harrington's interpretation, bloodthirsty bitch she is, and NOT Sarnows.

I should have a reread to get a better feel and to appease my memory.


Nike's communications were fine. It was another ship whose communications were too badly damaged for its captain(senior to both Honor and Young) to assume command. As far as Young was concerned, Sarnow was still alive and Nike was the flagship.

Pavel Young wasn't a sophisticated villain. He quite simply panicked when his ship was hit - for the first time in that battle, a little while after they had passed the scatter point. Then he ran away and didn't stop running.

The only reason that squadron was on his mind at all was because a few minutes earlier, Young privately celebrated the destruction of Van Slyke's flagship, as it meant he could claim squadron command combat experience and get promoted to Commodore faster.
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