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The politics of short-stopping firepower

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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:26 am

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Commandeering someone's scouts and hanging them out to dry without informing them as a Young or Santino would do—or worst yet, leaving them unawares to speculate—could leave said CO with their testicles lodged deeply in the sand, literally sitting helpless in the dark awaiting the incoming tide.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Silverwall   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:47 pm

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It should also be pointed out that in the case of Terakov he actually was the 3rd ranking officer in the sector with the other two both at spindle. RFC actually makes a point of stating it outright when he first reaches spindle.

So at least in his case it is well within the chain of command.

Most of the other cases are also (Senior) sector admirals reacting to events within thier sector and using any and all forces available.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by kzt   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:08 pm

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Silverwall wrote:It should also be pointed out that in the case of Terakov he actually was the 3rd ranking officer in the sector with the other two both at spindle. RFC actually makes a point of stating it outright when he first reaches spindle.

So at least in his case it is well within the chain of command.

Most of the other cases are also (Senior) sector admirals reacting to events within thier sector and using any and all forces available.

It doesn't matter if you are the highest ranking officer, unless you are in the chain of command you only have general military authority. Basically he's just another ship commander. He doesn't have any authority to order anyone who isn't an assigned member of his crew to do anything other than general military authority.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Silverwall   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:20 pm

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kzt wrote:
Silverwall wrote:It should also be pointed out that in the case of Terakov he actually was the 3rd ranking officer in the sector with the other two both at spindle. RFC actually makes a point of stating it outright when he first reaches spindle.

So at least in his case it is well within the chain of command.

Most of the other cases are also (Senior) sector admirals reacting to events within thier sector and using any and all forces available.

It doesn't matter if you are the highest ranking officer, unless you are in the chain of command you only have general military authority. Basically he's just another ship commander. He doesn't have any authority to order anyone who isn't an assigned member of his crew to do anything other than general military authority.


That may be how things work now, however in the age of sail upon which the honorverse is based things were much more fluid and more control was given to the officer on the scene. Basically in military matters the senior officer on a distant station has some delegated powers of the admiralty to change orders and deployments even of units not nominally assigned to him. Forces that try to adhere to a strict modern style chain of command will not be effective.

given that no-one in the west has fought a war like this since before the time of the telegraph it is not suprising that it seems strange to operate in such a manner to many now.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by saber964   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:54 pm

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There's an old military axiom that comes to mind in this situation.

It is easier to beg for forgiveness, than it is to seek permission.

As a stated in my Santino backstopping Harrington scenario Santino can backstop but he would have to justify it to Harrington. Harrington could do one of several things
1)Dismiss the threat.
2)Assess the threat in more limited way.
3)Assess the threat in full and assume temporary command.

In scenario 1 Harrington could be in hot water if the attack actually happens.
In 2 Harrington could peal off units under her command and assign them to Santinos command for a set time period
3 is plenty self explanatory.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:19 pm

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kzt wrote:
Silverwall wrote:It should also be pointed out that in the case of Terakov he actually was the 3rd ranking officer in the sector with the other two both at spindle. RFC actually makes a point of stating it outright when he first reaches spindle.

So at least in his case it is well within the chain of command.

Most of the other cases are also (Senior) sector admirals reacting to events within thier sector and using any and all forces available.

It doesn't matter if you are the highest ranking officer, unless you are in the chain of command you only have general military authority. Basically he's just another ship commander. He doesn't have any authority to order anyone who isn't an assigned member of his crew to do anything other than general military authority.


OBS established that when there isn't a formal station in place, the chain of command can become vague. That business about Young being senior officer of the picket only because nobody else outranked him? And then he wasn't the SO as long as his ship wasn't on-station?

Well, a similar situation arose under Khumalo's command. His "station" at that time was split into Northern and Southern Patrols. No formal squadrons, let alone task groups or forces. Terekhov was de facto SO of the Southern Patrol simply by being there.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:53 pm

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Has Honor ever commandeered anything? ISTR some shuffling of forces on the spot during the Battle of Manticore. I remember Honor sent a couple ships on ahead through the junction that separated those ships from their assigned force. May have been her own ships she detached, can't remember. And of course, Benjamin commandeered the Protectors Own for her.

When Honor was in the Basilisk System, could she have shortstopped any other forces coming through? When she had Fearless (CL-56) she was only a Commander.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by saber964   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:02 pm

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munroburton wrote:
kzt" quote="Silverwall wrote:It should also be pointed out that in the case of Terakov he actually was the 3rd ranking officer in the sector with the other two both at spindle. RFC actually makes a point of stating it outright when he first reaches spindle.

So at least in his case it is well within the chain of command.

Most of the other cases are also (Senior) sector admirals reacting to events within thier sector and using any and all forces available.

It doesn't matter if you are the highest ranking officer, unless you are in the chain of command you only have general military authority. Basically he's just another ship commander. He doesn't have any authority to order anyone who isn't an assigned member of his crew to do anything other than general military authority.


OBS established that when there isn't a formal station in place, the chain of command can become vague. That business about Young being senior officer of the picket only because nobody else outranked him? And then he wasn't the SO as long as his ship wasn't on-station?

Well, a similar situation arose under Khumalo's command. His "station" at that time was split into Northern and Southern Patrols. No formal squadrons, let alone task groups or forces. Terekhov was de facto SO of the Southern Patrol simply by being there.[/quote]


They probably had a squadron assigned but it was probably for administrative reasons. IIRC in HoS they mentioned 12 ship squadrons as opposed to 8 ship squadrons. At the time my estimation of Talbott stations OrBat was probably 12 CA's 12 Cl's and 18-24 DD's.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by saber964   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:05 pm

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cthia wrote:Has Honor ever commandeered anything? ISTR some shuffling of forces on the spot during the Battle of Manticore. I remember Honor sent a couple ships on ahead through the junction that separated those ships from their assigned force. May have been her own ships she detached, can't remember. And of course, Benjamin commandeered the Protectors Own for her.

When Honor was in the Basilisk System, could she have shortstopped any other forces coming through? When she had Fearless (CL-56) she was only a Commander.

IIRC Honor reinforced Kuzak's Third Fleet with McKeon's BatDiv and Truman's CarRon.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:38 pm

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saber964 wrote:
cthia wrote:Has Honor ever commandeered anything? ISTR some shuffling of forces on the spot during the Battle of Manticore. I remember Honor sent a couple ships on ahead through the junction that separated those ships from their assigned force. May have been her own ships she detached, can't remember. And of course, Benjamin commandeered the Protectors Own for her.

When Honor was in the Basilisk System, could she have shortstopped any other forces coming through? When she had Fearless (CL-56) she was only a Commander.

IIRC Honor reinforced Kuzak's Third Fleet with McKeon's BatDiv and Truman's CarRon.


But McKeon and Truman we're under Honor's command.Their formations were hers to 2nd to another formation.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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