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OBS - What happened to....

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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by saber964   » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:33 am

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munroburton wrote:
Theemile wrote:Some of the Edward Saganami As were sold to Alizon. ( The name of Terekov's new Sag-c flagship was passed this way). Honor's Nike was just renamed to "Hancock Station" to open the name for the new Nike Class, but kept in RMN service.


Ah, yes. Found it in AAC - the Reliants were listed for disposal before the war broke out again and saved them from the breakers.

That poor ship was barely fifteen years old. :(


That's not uncommon in wartime look at how long some aircraft during WWII lasted in front line service. IIRC the TBD Devastator carrier torpedo bombers first flew in 1937 entered service in early 1939 and was obsolete by mid 1942 or the F4F Wildcat fighter entered service in 1940 and was a second line fighter by late 1943.
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:00 pm

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saber964 wrote:
That's not uncommon in wartime look at how long some aircraft during WWII lasted in front line service. IIRC the TBD Devastator carrier torpedo bombers first flew in 1937 entered service in early 1939 and was obsolete by mid 1942 or the F4F Wildcat fighter entered service in 1940 and was a second line fighter by late 1943.


Yeah, the Devastator was a nice try, but became a VERY quick transitory gateway/prototype-ish design instead of the "next standard" it was meant as.

The Avenger was so much better that it made the Devastator look embarassing.
Having a more than twice as powerful engine can easily do that.

Of course, the production numbers really do tell, 130 built vs almost 10000. :mrgreen:
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:45 pm

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robert132 wrote:
Fireflair wrote:So I was recently rereading OBS and it occurred to me that Honor is taking over the Fearless but she takes it from the XO. Why?

I've seen any number of change of command ceremonies of ships. In all sorts of conditions; new commissioning, shipyard, deployed, or just resting in port. Every single time the off going CO was there. Even a pre-commission unit has a CO.

We'd send enlisted men off the boat and they'd hi-five their replacement on the pier sometimes, if they were lucky. Usually the Leading Petty Officer would get a bit of time to turn over with his predecessor, though I took over twice without seeing the guy I replaced. Most of the time the chief gets to see his replacement, though sometimes that doesn't happen either. It happened to me once that I took over without seeing the chief I relieved.

I saw one department head get replaced without seeing his replacement. But I never saw the XO or CO change out with out a turn over process during which the off going and on coming officer had time to change places. The only times I've heard of this happening was when the off going CO/XO was injured.

So where was the Fearless's CO? This is a ship that's almost 80 years old, has seen plenty of service. She didn't just come back from battle or anything. And when you're in the yards the CO is busy busy keeping up with paperwork, encouraging the yard dogs to give priority to the refit items he's concerned about. Plus keeping his crew in training, sims, and so forth.


I was career USN also and our current tradition is pretty much as you lay out unless the outgoing skipper was relieved for "cause" (i.e. him was bad boy) or he had to leave the ship ASAP due to medical reasons like injury (USS Fitzgerald's Captain.) The XO sits in the hot seat as "acting" skipper until either relieved by a new Captain or the current skipper returns. I've seen both.

However, the MWW was following to some extent the older (Age of Sail) Royal Navy tradition of the incoming Captain simply "reading himself (herself) in" in front of the crew and sometimes the outgoing Captain reading the orders detaching him from command.

It's the "reading in" that counts and we still see this in today's Navy when the incoming Captain reads his or her orders from BuPers under the authority of the Secretary of the Navy for him or her to assume command of the United States Ship Showboat.

This "reading in" is always done to make the assumption of command legal and as official notification to the ship's officers and through them the crew that they have a new Commanding Officer and who he or she is.

I believe it's scribbled into the Navy regs somewhere. ;)


I can't recall an instance in the RMN where the officer assuming command didn't read him/herself in rather than relieving the outgoing CO. Can anybody else?

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:25 pm

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Would there be a difference between an officer who is being dishonorably replaced or replaced in death? Seems that a dishonorably replaced officer should lose the privilege to hand "his" ship over. The officer is so bad they simply want him gone. "We'll send out a replacement asap. Whoever's left in charge should be a marked improvement over that SOB!"

The Admiralty sends them their "new orders" on-chip via "Registered Mail," which automatically includes orders to "Open immediately" upon receipt...

PACK YOUR SHIT! STOP GIT! STOP :lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by Fireflair   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:16 am

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Yes, I can recall the deck log entries that were required. It isn't just the change of CO that gets logged but arrival of new sailors and officers too. It's a legal record and kept for the life of the ship.

Even with the CO reading his orders and assuming command, I still wonder what happened to the old CO each time Honor's taken over a command. I some how find it difficult to believe that they've got a passel of ships sitting around without CO's.

I can understand if captain Roth (OBS captain mentioned before Honor took Fearless over, I believe) was relieved for protesting the butchery of Fearless's weapons. Though I think that if he'd been relieved for a reason like that, then Honor would have heard about it. I can't imagine that she would be so lazy and unprepared for a command which she was quite clearly looking forward to that she wouldn't have looked up the officers of record and the previous CO.

Back to the other ships where we see the CO's reading themselves in, which seems to happen fairly often, if the RMN is shuffling CO's around so fast they're running from ship to ship, leaving ships to be run by their XO's all the time it's a real manning issue.
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by Eagleeye   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:09 am

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Fireflair wrote:Yes, I can recall the deck log entries that were required. It isn't just the change of CO that gets logged but arrival of new sailors and officers too. It's a legal record and kept for the life of the ship.

Even with the CO reading his orders and assuming command, I still wonder what happened to the old CO each time Honor's taken over a command. I some how find it difficult to believe that they've got a passel of ships sitting around without CO's.

I can understand if captain Roth (OBS captain mentioned before Honor took Fearless over, I believe) was relieved for protesting the butchery of Fearless's weapons. Though I think that if he'd been relieved for a reason like that, then Honor would have heard about it. I can't imagine that she would be so lazy and unprepared for a command which she was quite clearly looking forward to that she wouldn't have looked up the officers of record and the previous CO.

Back to the other ships where we see the CO's reading themselves in, which seems to happen fairly often, if the RMN is shuffling CO's around so fast they're running from ship to ship, leaving ships to be run by their XO's all the time it's a real manning issue.


Honor got her command of HMS Fearless (CL) more or less in that moment she succesfully mastered the Brainmill. There was simply no time for her to get information about her new command. If I remember correctly, Courvoisier himself was personally in charge of that policy, because he feared she could decline her 1st cruiser command, if she knew how it was raped by BuShips. And that would've been a desaster for the RMN.
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:15 am

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Seriously, right or wrong, the mysteriousness of the previous CO always seemed like an administrative matter to me. Something above board. Above our paygrade.

What we are questioning now, is the very thing that I would expect to have happened if say... that asswipe Pavel Young didn't have the backing of his father, the 'good ole boy network' and certain files. Come on! What would have happened to Young had he been a "regular" Joe Blow of an officer with no strings to pull?

Young was such a detriment to the Star Kingdom that he would have been branded on the spot, had his spurs removed, despurred -- causing a slight administrative error that no one can discuss at the moment because it's also a delicate government matter.

When you are relieving someone like a Pavel Young or an Elvis Santino, you want it done right away so they don't have time to do more damage. And you want them removed from the premises immediately, so they don't destroy you or decide to make a total ass of themselves and ruin you in spite. (This is why prospective employers across the country at this very moment are insisting that their employee leave the premises immediately, under escort, and... "Your drawer has been cleaned out for you." Certainly how Young should have ben handled.

So, asking the question of "What happened to her previous mistress after God" might be above your pay grade. And depending on what government you're working for could also cost you to be summarily executed."

"Yes, 'Citizen Admiral.' "

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by Korgano   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:12 am

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Actually, in the case of Honor, most of her ships commands come directly from acceptance trials.
Fearless, Nike, Wayfarer, all directly from building. The rest, she was not the CO but squadron and fleet commander.
Nevertheless, in the books is clearly said several times that Adm. Cortez steal personnel from ships that go into repairs and refitting regularly and when they get ouf of yards fill them with what he could get from the ones entering atm. So most likely there was no changes of ships CO other than, deaths, promotions and yard time and in those 3 cases not likely to stay around to pass command.
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:36 pm

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Korgano wrote:Actually, in the case of Honor, most of her ships commands come directly from acceptance trials.
Fearless, Nike, Wayfarer, all directly from building. The rest, she was not the CO but squadron and fleet commander.
Nevertheless, in the books is clearly said several times that Adm. Cortez steal personnel from ships that go into repairs and refitting regularly and when they get ouf of yards fill them with what he could get from the ones entering atm. So most likely there was no changes of ships CO other than, deaths, promotions and yard time and in those 3 cases not likely to stay around to pass command.


It was far more likely that DW wanted to really get on with the plot. Remember that this was more or less the first book. It would be far easier to deal with the ceremonial aspects once he knew that Baen would keep publishing.
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Re: OBS - What happened to....
Post by saber964   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:13 pm

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Korgano wrote:Actually, in the case of Honor, most of her ships commands come directly from acceptance trials.
Fearless, Nike, Wayfarer, all directly from building. The rest, she was not the CO but squadron and fleet commander.
Nevertheless, in the books is clearly said several times that Adm. Cortez steal personnel from ships that go into repairs and refitting regularly and when they get ouf of yards fill them with what he could get from the ones entering atm. So most likely there was no changes of ships CO other than, deaths, promotions and yard time and in those 3 cases not likely to stay around to pass command.



IIRC Terakov got command of Hexapuma on no notice because the other CO had to take command of BC whose CO had been KIA.
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