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Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!

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Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:51 pm

cthia
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Something resonated with me when I read this passage from RFC's snippet.

-snip-

There would be very little traffic across their new warp bridge, they decided. In fact, its discovery had given added point to the value of . . . acquiring the Star Kingdom of Manticore and played a not insignificant part in their subsequent strategic thinking. Coordinated with the far larger, much more far-reaching Manticore Junction’s Gregor Terminus and the Durandel-Asgerd bridge, their new route would turn into a likely profit maker after all. And so they’d kept quiet about it . . . especially after one of Hereditary President Harris’ advisers had pointed out its potential value as a staging point for an unexpected attack upon Manticore from a completely different direction.

Assuming, of course, that any such attack was ever made necessary by Manticore’s relentless economic war against the hardworking proletarians of the People’s Republic, he’d added, undoubtedly with a suitably pious expression.

The Peoples Navy was both more pragmatic and less prone to hypocrisy when it came to conquering other people than its political masters. But it was also less enthusiastic about any military value the new warp bridge might possess, given the 200 LY between Calvin and Manticore. There was, the Octogan had patiently pointed out, no need for staging bases that far from their target just because they wanted to attack from a “different direction.” Particularly given that there was no such thing as — or need for — “different directions” for an assault launched through hyper-space, since no one could see it coming until it translated back into n-space at its target anyway.

-snip-

I was thinking that the author could throw a very interesting twist into the mix, now or in the future when the story picks up with Honor's kids. What if the MA discovered a very fortuitous wormhole junction in their own space that exits right smack dab where the GA wouldn't want them?

Is there any value of an optimum strategic placement? Where could that optimum placement be?

"Neither the Manties or Havenites are going to like this new development very much. But we are going to love it!," hisses the MA.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:12 pm

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cthia wrote:Something resonated with me when I read this passage from RFC's snippet.
I was thinking that the author could throw a very interesting twist into the mix, now or in the future when the story picks up with Honor's kids. What if the MA discovered a very fortuitous wormhole junction in their own space that exits right smack dab where the GA wouldn't want them?

Is there any value of an optimum strategic placement? Where could that optimum placement be?

In a prolonged war a system holding both end of a wormhole bridge into enemy territory (similar to Trevor's Star) give that side shortened communication loops, and safer resupply, and quicker access to their existing shipyards for repairs or replacement. It given the side with the wormhole advantages in operational tempo due to reduced communication and transit times.

But the advantages are strategic over a prolonged campaign. I can't see much how they'd apply to a single raid (ala Oyster Bay) nor to tactical combat. For a single surprise attack it rarely matters how long it takes the attackers go get there since any approach through hyper is virtually immune from detection.

Similarly a wormhole normally gives no tactical adavtage because combat normally happens within a systems hyper limit while wormholes are outside it (and usually way outside it). So it's not like you can sucker defenders away from the planet and use a wormhole to drop in behind them (at least not any more than you could with a second force the dropped out of hyper at some other point on the limit. Also it's very unlikely that defenders would be unaware of a wormhole in their own system - so at best it's in an unoccupied system nearby. But as the snippet said that doesn't let you come from an unexpected angle because a defender never knows of an attack until it drops out if hyper and it's trivial to pick roughly where on the sphere of the hyper limit you want to emerge no mater what direction you were coming from.

What a wormhole could let you do is peel off defensive forces, get in a stike and get them back on defense (using the reduced transit time) before the enemy can react to their absence. (Though you still have to account for the enemy possibly launching a raid or attack the just happens to hit while your forces are away - despite being unaware they're out of position.
But unless conflict with the MA turns into a conventional war a wormhole seems to just give their crews shorter raiding trips without allowing for attacks against the GA in new or expected areas.
But maybe I've overlooked something.
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:51 pm

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If the MA ends up with one or more wormhole termini in places "inside" the Manticore or Haven area of control- and they don't exist by stars with habitable planets and so are not being observed- they they could provide vastly shortened bridges to go after Manticore and Haven manufacturing and stratigic bases.

In theory, you run your attacking forces though an unknown termini in an unexpected place and the other side has no idea that this is happening. One of the problems of having to go just through hyperspace is the amount of time that takes even with military compensators and engines. Time. For MA in particular, you could shorten the sortie cycle time and get your ships back to at least a resupply point without having to make a voyage such as the SL has to use to get at Manticore or to do the commerce raiding. Depends on where the "new" termini are located and what the MA ships have to do to get 1st to the other end of it and then how far to either Manticore/Haven etc.

It strikes me that the MA had best start putting some serious defensive ships and things like minefields (think MWHJ Forts, squadrons and mines) at each of the secret termini they hold since their hidden network could become quite sticky if they start loosing nodes of it and that has serious impact on how they are able to move around their couriers/Streak Drive ships and warships..
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:38 am

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Minor point, the term MA can mean either Manticore Alliance or Mesan Alignment.
If you mean the latter, I recommend using MAlign (Mesan Alignment), especially since it has such wonderfully negative connotations. You can even capitalize the last letter to make MAligN for the Navy (Mesan Alignment Navy)

Using secret Wormholes as vectors to launch attacks long-range works only as long as the force isn't backtracked to the wormhole in question. Given Manty stealth tech (albeit only applied to Impeller Drive starships) and the possibility that during n attack, someone on the Manty sides somehow manages to lodge a recon drone into a damaged MAlign ship and use it as a beacon to follow them, the tactical use of the Wormhole can be ended once the location of one of the ends has been compromised.

Wormhole assaults, however, are a b*tch and a half to pull off, being virtually guaranteed suicide against a prepared and entrenched foe. Finding out where the other end is and launching an attack via Hyper takes longer but usually works better, as San Martin can attest.
~~~~~~

I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by shayvaan   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:10 am

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Brigade XO wrote:<snip>
It strikes me that the MA had best start putting some serious defensive ships and things like minefields (think MWHJ Forts, squadrons and mines) at each of the secret termini they hold since their hidden network could become quite sticky if they start loosing nodes of it and that has serious impact on how they are able to move around their couriers/Streak Drive ships and warships..


Seems to me the best defense would probably be a Lenny Det or two, and other invisible stuff, otherwise you are just asking the GA over for dinner after a random scout or two sees the readily visible infrastructure for the secret wormhole you are trying to hide. :D
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:11 am

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I would also note that while it takes more set-up time, you can get many of the operational tempo adavatages of a secret wormhole from setting up a secret forward base. So you don't necessarily need to find a secret wormhole in order to run more frequent than expected raids on an enemy (though the same risks of getting a raider backtracked to your origin exist)
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:26 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:I would also note that while it takes more set-up time, you can get many of the operational tempo adavatages of a secret wormhole from setting up a secret forward base. So you don't necessarily need to find a secret wormhole in order to run more frequent than expected raids on an enemy (though the same risks of getting a raider backtracked to your origin exist)

True.

But if there was a wormhole, and the secret base an extension thereof. Then the advantages multiply. Benefit of practical support from home system. The important aspect of time, turnaround time. Shortened communication loop. Greater degree of coordination of forces.

Also, if the base is located at the end of a termini, then the MAN could do to any invaders what the RMN does, quickly respond with an incoming force at the mention of a Case Zulu.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:40 am

cthia
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Michael Everett wrote:Minor point, the term MA can mean either Manticore Alliance or Mesan Alignment.
If you mean the latter, I recommend using MAlign (Mesan Alignment), especially since it has such wonderfully negative connotations. You can even capitalize the last letter to make MAligN for the Navy (Mesan Alignment Navy)

Using secret Wormholes as vectors to launch attacks long-range works only as long as the force isn't backtracked to the wormhole in question. Given Manty stealth tech (albeit only applied to Impeller Drive starships) and the possibility that during n attack, someone on the Manty sides somehow manages to lodge a recon drone into a damaged MAlign ship and use it as a beacon to follow them, the tactical use of the Wormhole can be ended once the location of one of the ends has been compromised.

Wormhole assaults, however, are a b*tch and a half to pull off, being virtually guaranteed suicide against a prepared and entrenched foe. Finding out where the other end is and launching an attack via Hyper takes longer but usually works better, as San Martin can attest.

Thanks for the abbreviation pointers. Sometimes you just don't get the memo. And I've been wondering how I could single out and abbrev., just the alliance between Grayson and Manticore. It also explains why I couldn't make heads or tails out of a few posts. And although I've used MA more than a time or three, sometimes I employ MAlign as well because of the same reason you fingered -- the negative connotation and inference to "malignant."

Not questioning your thought, but I am a bit surprised that even a recon drone could practically and effectively track at those distances through hyper.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:46 am

cthia
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Brigade XO wrote:If the MA ends up with one or more wormhole termini in places "inside" the Manticore or Haven area of control- and they don't exist by stars with habitable planets and so are not being observed- they they could provide vastly shortened bridges to go after Manticore and Haven manufacturing and stratigic bases.

In theory, you run your attacking forces though an unknown termini in an unexpected place and the other side has no idea that this is happening. One of the problems of having to go just through hyperspace is the amount of time that takes even with military compensators and engines. Time. For MA in particular, you could shorten the sortie cycle time and get your ships back to at least a resupply point without having to make a voyage such as the SL has to use to get at Manticore or to do the commerce raiding. Depends on where the "new" termini are located and what the MA ships have to do to get 1st to the other end of it and then how far to either Manticore/Haven etc.

It strikes me that the MA had best start putting some serious defensive ships and things like minefields (think MWHJ Forts, squadrons and mines) at each of the secret termini they hold since their hidden network could become quite sticky if they start loosing nodes of it and that has serious impact on how they are able to move around their couriers/Streak Drive ships and warships..

Many of my same and similar thoughts with the exception that I considered that the MAlign could do as Haven did by happenstance with Refuge. Set up basing operations on a class of planet where no one would dare bother to look, especially since they could probably withstand conditions of the worst kind.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hey! No fair, putting a wormhole junction there!
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:54 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I would also note that while it takes more set-up time, you can get many of the operational tempo adavatages of a secret wormhole from setting up a secret forward base. So you don't necessarily need to find a secret wormhole in order to run more frequent than expected raids on an enemy (though the same risks of getting a raider backtracked to your origin exist)

True.

But if there was a wormhole, and the secret base an extension thereof. Then the advantages multiply. Benefit of practical support from home system. The important aspect of time, turnaround time. Shortened communication loop. Greater degree of coordination of forces.

Also, if the base is located at the end of a termini, then the MAN could do to any invaders what the RMN does, quickly respond with an incoming force at the mention of a Case Zulu.

It also gives the advantage of reaction time of movements, counter movements. Reminiscent of Byng not expecting such a swift reply from his "error in judgment" in destroying three hapless destroyers.

Not knowing where the locus of an enemy (Darius) is makes it difficult to formulate offensive strategies. You can't even mark them on your map. Factor in the fortuitous existence of an optimally placed wormhole in your position that you are also unaware of, then their version of the Salamander might be able to have herself a little fun.

Being able to quickly place invisible warships sounds like a serious advantage.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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