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Manticore Seniority

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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Erls   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Erls
Lieutenant Commander

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What about Sarnow? He was clearly superior to Honor in ASW, and I believe had reached full admiral status before her post-Hades promotions.

From what I remember, the only Mantirocan admirals who survived the Havenite wars (and assassination - Webster) and had reached full admiral before Honor are White Haven, Caparelli, Givens, Hemphill, and likely Sarnow. The others, like Truman and Henke, where all junior to Honor.

Now, what's interesting to me is if the RMN considers Grayson (or Haven) time in rank in deciding upon seniority when contributions to a joint fleet are close. That could make the overall seniority structure of the GA pretty murky...
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by saber964   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:27 am

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Erls wrote:What about Sarnow? He was clearly superior to Honor in ASW, and I believe had reached full admiral status before her post-Hades promotions.

From what I remember, the only Mantirocan admirals who survived the Havenite wars (and assassination - Webster) and had reached full admiral before Honor are White Haven, Caparelli, Givens, Hemphill, and likely Sarnow. The others, like Truman and Henke, where all junior to Honor.

Now, what's interesting to me is if the RMN considers Grayson (or Haven) time in rank in deciding upon seniority when contributions to a joint fleet are close. That could make the overall seniority structure of the GA pretty murky...



Honor is the second ranking admiral in the GSN, the only person higher is the High Admiral. Currently HADM Judah Yanakov even though he was junior to her in BtRon 1
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Silverwall   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:19 am

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saber964 wrote:
Erls wrote:What about Sarnow? He was clearly superior to Honor in ASW, and I believe had reached full admiral status before her post-Hades promotions.

From what I remember, the only Mantirocan admirals who survived the Havenite wars (and assassination - Webster) and had reached full admiral before Honor are White Haven, Caparelli, Givens, Hemphill, and likely Sarnow. The others, like Truman and Henke, where all junior to Honor.

Now, what's interesting to me is if the RMN considers Grayson (or Haven) time in rank in deciding upon seniority when contributions to a joint fleet are close. That could make the overall seniority structure of the GA pretty murky...



Honor is the second ranking admiral in the GSN, the only person higher is the High Admiral. Currently HADM Judah Yanakov even though he was junior to her in BtRon 1


Seniority is very rarely a consideration when appointing at the fleet (or army) level. Examples from earth history include Eisenhower, Montgomery, Arthur Wellesly and of course Nelson himself. The tradational solution to having someone with more seniority who kicks up a stink is to further promote them to some convenient but strictly ceremonial rank and position where then can't cause too much trouble.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by jtg452   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:46 pm

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ghost wrote:I don't know why I'm thinking of this now instead of after At all costs came out but I'm wondering who the senior admiral in the RMN is right now. I understand Caparelli is the First Space Lord and is pretty senior but then Givens is only a Vice Admiral. Caparelli's position doesn't necessarily mean he's the senior admiral as Webster was senior to him after he stepped down and took over home fleet.

We did lose many senior admirals during the battle of Manticore so who's left. In fact, unless I missed something, Sonia Hemphill may be senior or in the top few as she was an admiral of the green during On Basilak Station. Any thoughts or anything I missed?


There's seniority of rank, then there's the hierarchy of command. The 1st Space Lord, as Dukk pointed out, is the head of the Navy.

If you are 1st Space Lord, you are in charge. Period.

An Admiral may hold an equal rank to the 1st Space Lord and may even have more time in grade than the 1st Space Lord but the 1st Space Lord is still the superior position, so the 'junior' man is in charge.

A station commander may be technically junior to a fleet or task force commander not in his direct chain of command but, unless specifically order otherwise by higher, is still in command of and responsible for his assigned duties.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by saber964   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:28 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
ghost wrote:I don't know why I'm thinking of this now instead of after At all costs came out but I'm wondering who the senior admiral in the RMN is right now. I understand Caparelli is the First Space Lord and is pretty senior but then Givens is only a Vice Admiral. Caparelli's position doesn't necessarily mean he's the senior admiral as Webster was senior to him after he stepped down and took over home fleet.

We did lose many senior admirals during the battle of Manticore so who's left. In fact, unless I missed something, Sonia Hemphill may be senior or in the top few as she was an admiral of the green during On Basilak Station. Any thoughts or anything I missed?


There's seniority of rank, then there's the hierarchy of command. The 1st Space Lord, as Dukk pointed out, is the head of the Navy.

If you are 1st Space Lord, you are in charge. Period.

An Admiral may hold an equal rank to the 1st Space Lord and may even have more time in grade than the 1st Space Lord but the 1st Space Lord is still the superior position, so the 'junior' man is in charge.

A station commander may be technically junior to a fleet or task force commander not in his direct chain of command but, unless specifically order otherwise by higher, is still in command of and responsible for his assigned duties.

Look at VADM O'Mally he was senior to VADM Khumalo but was junior because of the position Khumalo held.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by ghost   » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:54 pm

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Duckk wrote:From House of Steel:

The First Space Lord, regardless of his actual rank, is considered the senior uniformed officer in the RMN and is responsible for the overall strategic direction, force structure management, and deployment of the Navy.


I get it but that wasn't my point. To give an example I worked as a train dispatcher for a railroad in which you could also bid into a Chief Dispatcher position. Whoever held the chief's position was in charge regardless of time in grade. This question was actually a time in grade question. Which admiral has been in the 0-9 (or o-10) slot for the longest time. Remember than White Haven doesn't count because he is now a civilian. Sonja was an full admiral while Sarnow was a Rear admiral so there's no way he is senior to her in time in grade. If, however, he was promoted to Fisrt Space Lord, he could give her lawfull orders.

The question remains, who has been full Admiral the longest.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Silverwall   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:41 am

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ghost wrote:
Duckk wrote:From House of Steel:

The First Space Lord, regardless of his actual rank, is considered the senior uniformed officer in the RMN and is responsible for the overall strategic direction, force structure management, and deployment of the Navy.


I get it but that wasn't my point. To give an example I worked as a train dispatcher for a railroad in which you could also bid into a Chief Dispatcher position. Whoever held the chief's position was in charge regardless of time in grade. This question was actually a time in grade question. Which admiral has been in the 0-9 (or o-10) slot for the longest time. Remember than White Haven doesn't count because he is now a civilian. Sonja was an full admiral while Sarnow was a Rear admiral so there's no way he is senior to her in time in grade. If, however, he was promoted to Fisrt Space Lord, he could give her lawfull orders.

The question remains, who has been full Admiral the longest.


Given the proliferation of senior officers in dead end positions I would not be at all supprised if there are still technically active officers at these ranks who have not had a meaningful command in decades but have driven desks and sat on committees for ever. A classic example is the senior Confederate General in the american cival war Samuel Cooper who was senior to all of Lee, Jackson, Johnston and Beauregard but who never commanded in the field or did much of historical note. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Cooper_(general)

I would not be at all supprised to find a Cooper like figure quitely accruing seniority somewhere in the bowels of admiralty house.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:21 am

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Nobody has mentioned Admiral Higgins yet. He took over home fleet when Honor went to Haven to negotiate the peace treaty. He was in command of home fleet when Oyster Bay happened.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by munroburton   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:30 am

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ghost wrote:I get it but that wasn't my point. To give an example I worked as a train dispatcher for a railroad in which you could also bid into a Chief Dispatcher position. Whoever held the chief's position was in charge regardless of time in grade. This question was actually a time in grade question. Which admiral has been in the 0-9 (or o-10) slot for the longest time. Remember than White Haven doesn't count because he is now a civilian. Sonja was an full admiral while Sarnow was a Rear admiral so there's no way he is senior to her in time in grade. If, however, he was promoted to Fisrt Space Lord, he could give her lawfull orders.

The question remains, who has been full Admiral the longest.


Manticoran officers continue to accrue seniority on half-pay. Despite currently serving as a civilian, White Haven is still collecting his 'days in grade'.

Given prolong, there could be scores of half-pay Admirals. Thomas Bachfisch reached the rank of admiral sometime in the 40 years after he was beached as a Captain.

There was a discussion between Honor and Michelle in AAC in which they reveal that, of their graduating class, 30% had reached at least junior flag rank, around 20% had become Captains of the List, 20% more were junior-grade Captains and 15% dead or medically retired. The remaining 15% either washed out or had unsuccessful careers.

We know Hamish Alexander and Thomas Caparelli were both at Saganami Island at the same time. Both of them were Admirals of the Green at the start of OBS. What happened to their classmates? Most of them must be admirals now, even if they were only on active duty until they reached List Captain.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by jtg452   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:22 am

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munroburton wrote:There was a discussion between Honor and Michelle in AAC in which they reveal that, of their graduating class, 30% had reached at least junior flag rank, around 20% had become Captains of the List, 20% more were junior-grade Captains and 15% dead or medically retired. The remaining 15% either washed out or had unsuccessful careers.

We know Hamish Alexander and Thomas Caparelli were both at Saganami Island at the same time. Both of them were Admirals of the Green at the start of OBS. What happened to their classmates? Most of them must be admirals now, even if they were only on active duty until they reached List Captain.


Using the same percentages that Honor and Michelle mentioned, you can assume that there's the possibility that there's someone that graduated with Alexander and Caparelli who never reached Captain of the List.

Since the RMN rank system is based on the Age of Sail British system, making Captain of the List (Captain, Senior Grade) is extremely important for one's career. Once you make the List, you are guaranteed to make Admiral eventually. Even if you go on half pay the day after you make the list and are never recalled to active duty again, you will, if you live long enough, eventually get the bump to Admiral by seniority alone.

The only exception to getting the advancement in rank via seniority is if you were put in what the British referred to as the 'Yellow Squadron'- meaning you screwed up so badly that you are permanently put on half pay but they can't quite kick you out of the Service and be rid of you. In that case, your half pay rank is considered your permanent rank and they skip you in seniority even when you rise to the top of the seniority list.
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