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Manticore Seniority

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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by saber964   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:30 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
munroburton wrote:There was a discussion between Honor and Michelle in AAC in which they reveal that, of their graduating class, 30% had reached at least junior flag rank, around 20% had become Captains of the List, 20% more were junior-grade Captains and 15% dead or medically retired. The remaining 15% either washed out or had unsuccessful careers.

We know Hamish Alexander and Thomas Caparelli were both at Saganami Island at the same time. Both of them were Admirals of the Green at the start of OBS. What happened to their classmates? Most of them must be admirals now, even if they were only on active duty until they reached List Captain.


Using the same percentages that Honor and Michelle mentioned, you can assume that there's the possibility that there's someone that graduated with Alexander and Caparelli who never reached Captain of the List.

Since the RMN rank system is based on the Age of Sail British system, making Captain of the List (Captain, Senior Grade) is extremely important for one's career. Once you make the List, you are guaranteed to make Admiral eventually. Even if you go on half pay the day after you make the list and are never recalled to active duty again, you will, if you live long enough, eventually get the bump to Admiral by seniority alone.

The only exception to getting the advancement in rank via seniority is if you were put in what the British referred to as the 'Yellow Squadron'- meaning you screwed up so badly that you are permanently put on half pay but they can't quite kick you out of the Service and be rid of you. In that case, your half pay rank is considered your permanent rank and they skip you in seniority even when you rise to the top of the seniority list.

What would probably have happened to Pavel Young if he had been totally exonerated.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by jdtinIA   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:01 pm

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I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:40 pm

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jdtinIA wrote:I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.


ONI 'helped' him acquire an Andy auxiliary ship and he became a pirate hunter and spy in Siliesia.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Fireflair   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:58 pm

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Kizarvexis wrote:
jdtinIA wrote:I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.


ONI 'helped' him acquire an Andy auxiliary ship and he became a pirate hunter and spy in Siliesia.


There's a scene where Honor and the admiral discuss his half-pay status. He unequivocally states that he felt he deserved to be on half-pay for getting his ship shot out from under him and having to have a middie pull it together. That he didn't blame the admiralty house.

From how the rest of the conversation goes, I was under the distinct impression that when enough time had gone by Admiralty asked him back but he didn't want to go back because of how he viewed his screw up. With the war on they could have used every experienced captain, even one who'd made a mistake. Look at Young, they kept him around despite a monumental screw up at Basilisk. Of course Young had the family name and politics going for him.

I felt the reason that the admiral didn't come back to service was a combination of innate character and plot reasons. The fact that ONI 'helped' him to get the ship, weapons and warrant in Sili space is a pretty clear indicator to me that they would have brought him back on if he'd wanted to come off of half-pay status.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by jtg452   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:45 am

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jdtinIA wrote:I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.

The lack of influence and patronage in the higher ranks, the House of Lords or anywhere else in the government didn't do him any good either.

Remember, this was pre-war. Patronage and influence peddling was in full force. The fact that he worked his way up to Captain of the List in that environment AND had an active, independent commission says a great deal about how good he was.

Since ONI worked with him at all, I seriously doubt he was 'Yellow Squadroned'. Besides, he got his broad pennant. If he'd been Yellowed, he would have ended up the Galaxy's Most Senior Captain of the List before he saw the rank of Admiral. The Yellow Squadron is reserved for those special folks that you can't quite get rid of for one reason or another but you can't trust do actually give them something, no matter how inconsequential, to do.

He screwed up and ended up on the beach because he had no patron looking after him. The fact that he was very good at his job, and those in the know in Admiralty House knew it, is the reason that ONI made use of him in Silesia. If he'd had some patronage, he could have been brought back after a few years on the beach. That patronage pressure would have given the Admiralty an excuse to bring him back.

The late- and unlamented- Pavel Young's career, on the other hand, is an example of what having scads of influence can do for you. He wasn't good enough to have command of a Star Knight but his Daddy pulled some strings.

He was at Basilisk for a reason- because the Navy couldn't just get rid of him. His father had too much juice in the government and would have used his influence to punish the Navy for getting rid of him. Since they couldn't get rid of him, they just stuck him someplace where they thought he could do the least damage.

Pavel getting placed into the Yellow Squadron would have probably happened if he hadn't been found guilty of enough to be kicked out of the Navy entirely. Permanent half pay gets him out of the Navy while, technically, saving the Young family form the embarrassment of cashiering.

That's the advantage of Yellowing someone. It's quiet and internal to the Navy. No press releases made, no trials, no paper trail. An officer without an assignment is on half pay automatically, so there's no news there. The Navy just makes sure he never comes off of it. Basically, the Navy just forgets they exist- even when promotion time comes around.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:33 am

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The RMN has no equivalent of the yellow squadron you're talking about. Once an officer makes Captain of the List, they're guaranteed advancement to Admiral as long as they aren't dismissed from the service or die.

Furthermore, I'm not sure about your usage of the "yellow squadron". Google is telling me during the Napoleonic era, "Appointed to the yellow squadron" was a colloquial term for Post Captains who had been offered promotion upon the condition that they retire immediately, receiving a Rear Admiral's half-pay.

“In 1747, the Admiralty introduced a scheme for senior Captains whereby those not selected for active flag rank received a nominal promotion to the rank of ‘Rear-Admiral without distinction of squadron’. In effect, this was a disguised form of compulsory retirement scheme, but the ‘yellow admirals’ retired on a Rear-Admiral’s half-pay. The intent of the 1747 scheme was to stop the complaints of Captains passed over for promotion. It did nothing to eliminate the many elderly or unfit Captains who had not yet risen to the top of the list.”

“Once he had been made a post captain, promotion to admiral was automatic. This was done by seniority, but it didn't mean he would necessarily fly his flag at sea. Admirals could be appointed to an unspecified squadron, commonly known as ‘the yellow squadron’, if the Admiralty had no confidence in a captain’s ability to command a fleet. The follow on effect to this was that if the Admiralty wanted to promote an able captain to flag rank, they would have to reach down the list and promote all the captains above him.”


The RMN doesn't completely mirror the RN in this. They can promote officers out of the zone and they can place them onto half-pay status indefinitely. Both Caparelli and Janacek used these powers, for quite different reasons.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by saber964   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:14 pm

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munroburton wrote:The RMN has no equivalent of the yellow squadron you're talking about. Once an officer makes Captain of the List, they're guaranteed advancement to Admiral as long as they aren't dismissed from the service or die.

Furthermore, I'm not sure about your usage of the "yellow squadron". Google is telling me during the Napoleonic era, "Appointed to the yellow squadron" was a colloquial term for Post Captains who had been offered promotion upon the condition that they retire immediately, receiving a Rear Admiral's half-pay.

“In 1747, the Admiralty introduced a scheme for senior Captains whereby those not selected for active flag rank received a nominal promotion to the rank of ‘Rear-Admiral without distinction of squadron’. In effect, this was a disguised form of compulsory retirement scheme, but the ‘yellow admirals’ retired on a Rear-Admiral’s half-pay. The intent of the 1747 scheme was to stop the complaints of Captains passed over for promotion. It did nothing to eliminate the many elderly or unfit Captains who had not yet risen to the top of the list.”

“Once he had been made a post captain, promotion to admiral was automatic. This was done by seniority, but it didn't mean he would necessarily fly his flag at sea. Admirals could be appointed to an unspecified squadron, commonly known as ‘the yellow squadron’, if the Admiralty had no confidence in a captain’s ability to command a fleet. The follow on effect to this was that if the Admiralty wanted to promote an able captain to flag rank, they would have to reach down the list and promote all the captains above him.”


The RMN doesn't completely mirror the RN in this. They can promote officers out of the zone and they can place them onto half-pay status indefinitely. Both Caparelli and Janacek used these powers, for quite different reasons.



In the USN the assign you to a really really out of the way shore billet like Navy Reserve station Custer SD or Navy Reserve Station Ft Scott KS or Navy Reserve Station Barrow AK.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:00 pm

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[
“Once he had been made a post captain, promotion to admiral was automatic. This was done by seniority, but it didn't mean he would necessarily fly his flag at sea. Admirals could be appointed to an unspecified squadron, commonly known as ‘the yellow squadron’, if the Admiralty had no confidence in a captain’s ability to command a fleet. The follow on effect to this was that if the Admiralty wanted to promote an able captain to flag rank, they would have to reach down the list and promote all the captains above him.”[/quote]

The RMN doesn't completely mirror the RN in this. They can promote officers out of the zone and they can place them onto half-pay status indefinitely. Both Caparelli and Janacek used these powers, for quite different reasons.[/quote]


In the USN the assign you to a really really out of the way shore billet like Navy Reserve station Custer SD or Navy Reserve Station Ft Scott KS or Navy Reserve Station Barrow AK.[/quote]

Much of this does not really matter. We learned early on that a lot of positions were rotated because once prolong was available careers could be very long. I would guess that the navy gently retired a lot of people particularly in peacetime to make way for younger ones. Someone might get very bored as a Rear Admiral for 20 years because no one was retiring. Chances are a real lot of the older folk were "on the beach."

So chances are those who became Admirals of the Green, the senior admirals, shifted jobs.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:51 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Much of this does not really matter. We learned early on that a lot of positions were rotated because once prolong was available careers could be very long. I would guess that the navy gently retired a lot of people particularly in peacetime to make way for younger ones. Someone might get very bored as a Rear Admiral for 20 years because no one was retiring. Chances are a real lot of the older folk were "on the beach."

So chances are those who became Admirals of the Green, the senior admirals, shifted jobs.

There was likely some of that, but it might not be that bad because the introduction of Prolong to Manticore roughly coincided with King Roger's massive naval buildup; in response to the Havenite threat.

So there would be a steady increase in the number of available flag positions (admittedly nowhere near as many as increased ship captain slots)


However had the war not occurred, and given a bit of time, the large increase in captains would lead again to a significant surplus of Admirals - you might end up with a nearly SLN comic opera situation where relatively junior Admirals were the captains of individual ships for lack of any other place to put them (and to cut back on the creation of new captains of the list who'd inevitable end up as more excess Admirals)
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by robert132   » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:57 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
ghost wrote:I don't know why I'm thinking of this now instead of after At all costs came out but I'm wondering who the senior admiral in the RMN is right now. I understand Caparelli is the First Space Lord and is pretty senior but then Givens is only a Vice Admiral. Caparelli's position doesn't necessarily mean he's the senior admiral as Webster was senior to him after he stepped down and took over home fleet.

We did lose many senior admirals during the battle of Manticore so who's left. In fact, unless I missed something, Sonia Hemphill may be senior or in the top few as she was an admiral of the green during On Basilak Station. Any thoughts or anything I missed?


There's seniority of rank, then there's the hierarchy of command. The 1st Space Lord, as Dukk pointed out, is the head of the Navy.

If you are 1st Space Lord, you are in charge. Period.

An Admiral may hold an equal rank to the 1st Space Lord and may even have more time in grade than the 1st Space Lord but the 1st Space Lord is still the superior position, so the 'junior' man is in charge.

A station commander may be technically junior to a fleet or task force commander not in his direct chain of command but, unless specifically order otherwise by higher, is still in command of and responsible for his assigned duties.


I've been catching up (slowly) on reading posts and thought I might add to this part of the discussion.

The term used by the USN today is "Positional Authority" whereby a junior, by virtue of the billet or position he/she is assigned to fill and with the authority that goes with that position can issue lawful orders to someone senior (MUCH senior) to them.

A case in point that I am familiar with is a position I filled on a regular basis ... Officer of the Deck (in Port) where as a First Class P.O. I was responsible for the safety and security of the ship while on watch in that position and had the requisite Authority as authorized by the Commanding Officer AND the responsibility to go with it.

If LT "Nose in the Air" decided he wanted to cross MY Quarterdeck he needed my permission to do so, he couldn't just bull his way across.

I once had an intruder try to enter the ship, a Chief (senior in grade to me) who was not known to me. I stopped him, he tried to browbeat me into letting him aboard without identification and I gave him a choice, cooperate and show me his ID or I'd call away the Master at Arms and my next senior in position, the Command Duty Officer.

He called my bluff and I called both the duty MAA and the CDO to the quarterdeck.

Turned out this guy actually worked for the Destroyer Squadron Staff and was well known by my MAA who, with a grin asked the CDO and I if we wanted him bounced back down the brow (gangway to you landlubbers) an onto the pier. :D That Chief was conducting an unscheduled test of our ship's security.

I got a pat on the back from the Squadron Commodore for standing my ground with this guy. I won't tell you what detrimental things to my career he threatened me with but I almost told Fred (the MAA / Gunner's Mate 1st Class) to bounce him into the harbor. :x

Positional Authority is somewhat misunderstood though, it's not absolute and DOESN'T allow you to exceed the Authority granted you by competent authority (i.e. my Captain.) So I'd have been wrong to have Fred heave this ass overboard, tempting though it was. :lol:

In the Honorverse, as an example, positional authority allows a cox'n to give orders to even senior officer embarked in his pinnace or cutter when those orders are necessary for the safe operation of the craft, same as a small craft cox'n in today's Navy or an A/C commander transporting personnel senior to him/her self.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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