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Manticore Seniority

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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by saber964   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:30 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
munroburton wrote:There was a discussion between Honor and Michelle in AAC in which they reveal that, of their graduating class, 30% had reached at least junior flag rank, around 20% had become Captains of the List, 20% more were junior-grade Captains and 15% dead or medically retired. The remaining 15% either washed out or had unsuccessful careers.

We know Hamish Alexander and Thomas Caparelli were both at Saganami Island at the same time. Both of them were Admirals of the Green at the start of OBS. What happened to their classmates? Most of them must be admirals now, even if they were only on active duty until they reached List Captain.


Using the same percentages that Honor and Michelle mentioned, you can assume that there's the possibility that there's someone that graduated with Alexander and Caparelli who never reached Captain of the List.

Since the RMN rank system is based on the Age of Sail British system, making Captain of the List (Captain, Senior Grade) is extremely important for one's career. Once you make the List, you are guaranteed to make Admiral eventually. Even if you go on half pay the day after you make the list and are never recalled to active duty again, you will, if you live long enough, eventually get the bump to Admiral by seniority alone.

The only exception to getting the advancement in rank via seniority is if you were put in what the British referred to as the 'Yellow Squadron'- meaning you screwed up so badly that you are permanently put on half pay but they can't quite kick you out of the Service and be rid of you. In that case, your half pay rank is considered your permanent rank and they skip you in seniority even when you rise to the top of the seniority list.

What would probably have happened to Pavel Young if he had been totally exonerated.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by jdtinIA   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:01 pm

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I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:40 pm

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jdtinIA wrote:I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.


ONI 'helped' him acquire an Andy auxiliary ship and he became a pirate hunter and spy in Siliesia.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by Fireflair   » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:58 pm

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Kizarvexis wrote:
jdtinIA wrote:I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.


ONI 'helped' him acquire an Andy auxiliary ship and he became a pirate hunter and spy in Siliesia.


There's a scene where Honor and the admiral discuss his half-pay status. He unequivocally states that he felt he deserved to be on half-pay for getting his ship shot out from under him and having to have a middie pull it together. That he didn't blame the admiralty house.

From how the rest of the conversation goes, I was under the distinct impression that when enough time had gone by Admiralty asked him back but he didn't want to go back because of how he viewed his screw up. With the war on they could have used every experienced captain, even one who'd made a mistake. Look at Young, they kept him around despite a monumental screw up at Basilisk. Of course Young had the family name and politics going for him.

I felt the reason that the admiral didn't come back to service was a combination of innate character and plot reasons. The fact that ONI 'helped' him to get the ship, weapons and warrant in Sili space is a pretty clear indicator to me that they would have brought him back on if he'd wanted to come off of half-pay status.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by jtg452   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:45 am

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jdtinIA wrote:I always wondered if part of the reason Honor's old CO (Bachfish IIRC) never got called back to duty was because of something similar to the afore mentioned Yellow Squadron.

The lack of influence and patronage in the higher ranks, the House of Lords or anywhere else in the government didn't do him any good either.

Remember, this was pre-war. Patronage and influence peddling was in full force. The fact that he worked his way up to Captain of the List in that environment AND had an active, independent commission says a great deal about how good he was.

Since ONI worked with him at all, I seriously doubt he was 'Yellow Squadroned'. Besides, he got his broad pennant. If he'd been Yellowed, he would have ended up the Galaxy's Most Senior Captain of the List before he saw the rank of Admiral. The Yellow Squadron is reserved for those special folks that you can't quite get rid of for one reason or another but you can't trust do actually give them something, no matter how inconsequential, to do.

He screwed up and ended up on the beach because he had no patron looking after him. The fact that he was very good at his job, and those in the know in Admiralty House knew it, is the reason that ONI made use of him in Silesia. If he'd had some patronage, he could have been brought back after a few years on the beach. That patronage pressure would have given the Admiralty an excuse to bring him back.

The late- and unlamented- Pavel Young's career, on the other hand, is an example of what having scads of influence can do for you. He wasn't good enough to have command of a Star Knight but his Daddy pulled some strings.

He was at Basilisk for a reason- because the Navy couldn't just get rid of him. His father had too much juice in the government and would have used his influence to punish the Navy for getting rid of him. Since they couldn't get rid of him, they just stuck him someplace where they thought he could do the least damage.

Pavel getting placed into the Yellow Squadron would have probably happened if he hadn't been found guilty of enough to be kicked out of the Navy entirely. Permanent half pay gets him out of the Navy while, technically, saving the Young family form the embarrassment of cashiering.

That's the advantage of Yellowing someone. It's quiet and internal to the Navy. No press releases made, no trials, no paper trail. An officer without an assignment is on half pay automatically, so there's no news there. The Navy just makes sure he never comes off of it. Basically, the Navy just forgets they exist- even when promotion time comes around.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:33 am

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The RMN has no equivalent of the yellow squadron you're talking about. Once an officer makes Captain of the List, they're guaranteed advancement to Admiral as long as they aren't dismissed from the service or die.

Furthermore, I'm not sure about your usage of the "yellow squadron". Google is telling me during the Napoleonic era, "Appointed to the yellow squadron" was a colloquial term for Post Captains who had been offered promotion upon the condition that they retire immediately, receiving a Rear Admiral's half-pay.

“In 1747, the Admiralty introduced a scheme for senior Captains whereby those not selected for active flag rank received a nominal promotion to the rank of ‘Rear-Admiral without distinction of squadron’. In effect, this was a disguised form of compulsory retirement scheme, but the ‘yellow admirals’ retired on a Rear-Admiral’s half-pay. The intent of the 1747 scheme was to stop the complaints of Captains passed over for promotion. It did nothing to eliminate the many elderly or unfit Captains who had not yet risen to the top of the list.”

“Once he had been made a post captain, promotion to admiral was automatic. This was done by seniority, but it didn't mean he would necessarily fly his flag at sea. Admirals could be appointed to an unspecified squadron, commonly known as ‘the yellow squadron’, if the Admiralty had no confidence in a captain’s ability to command a fleet. The follow on effect to this was that if the Admiralty wanted to promote an able captain to flag rank, they would have to reach down the list and promote all the captains above him.”


The RMN doesn't completely mirror the RN in this. They can promote officers out of the zone and they can place them onto half-pay status indefinitely. Both Caparelli and Janacek used these powers, for quite different reasons.
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Re: Manticore Seniority
Post by saber964   » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:14 pm

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munroburton wrote:The RMN has no equivalent of the yellow squadron you're talking about. Once an officer makes Captain of the List, they're guaranteed advancement to Admiral as long as they aren't dismissed from the service or die.

Furthermore, I'm not sure about your usage of the "yellow squadron". Google is telling me during the Napoleonic era, "Appointed to the yellow squadron" was a colloquial term for Post Captains who had been offered promotion upon the condition that they retire immediately, receiving a Rear Admiral's half-pay.

“In 1747, the Admiralty introduced a scheme for senior Captains whereby those not selected for active flag rank received a nominal promotion to the rank of ‘Rear-Admiral without distinction of squadron’. In effect, this was a disguised form of compulsory retirement scheme, but the ‘yellow admirals’ retired on a Rear-Admiral’s half-pay. The intent of the 1747 scheme was to stop the complaints of Captains passed over for promotion. It did nothing to eliminate the many elderly or unfit Captains who had not yet risen to the top of the list.”

“Once he had been made a post captain, promotion to admiral was automatic. This was done by seniority, but it didn't mean he would necessarily fly his flag at sea. Admirals could be appointed to an unspecified squadron, commonly known as ‘the yellow squadron’, if the Admiralty had no confidence in a captain’s ability to command a fleet. The follow on effect to this was that if the Admiralty wanted to promote an able captain to flag rank, they would have to reach down the list and promote all the captains above him.”


The RMN doesn't completely mirror the RN in this. They can promote officers out of the zone and they can place them onto half-pay status indefinitely. Both Caparelli and Janacek used these powers, for quite different reasons.



In the USN the assign you to a really really out of the way shore billet like Navy Reserve station Custer SD or Navy Reserve Station Ft Scott KS or Navy Reserve Station Barrow AK.
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