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Oh, what the heck . . .

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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Louis R   » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:50 am

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Might help if people read the snippet again, carefully: it is made quite clear that the Darkfall Saga recounts at least a significant part of the story of how Sanctuary was settled - and that the locals had found the archaeological evidence for that _themselves_ before recontact, and [eventually] accepted it. [that's what that whole bit about a guy like Schliemann is all about. He did with Darkfall what Schliemann did with the Illiad.]

Brigade XO wrote:It is exactly the Legislaturalists and then Committee of Public Safety who put Santuary in this position.
From one perspective, they treated it only a bit better than the various systems that were conquered though outright millitary assault or manipulation such as OFS practices.

We have NOT been told that there was wholesale slaughter on Santuary, not yet even a mention of wat was done to the government(s) that existed on the planet when Haven showed up. Remember, these people are being described as approximately Earth AD 1850 so no space presence, no aircraft (I would give you hot air balloons if you like) and certainly not exactly able to stand up to any sizable force which PRH could have landed. We just don't know what happened between that time and the point at which the ROH took over from the SS administration overseeing the administration of the planet and the various Havenite politicall and military prisoners it moved there along with the techs/teacher and apparently anthhropologists/researchers/archeologists to study what had happened to the colony from when they arrived on planet untill Haven's military survey ship arrived. Just having been told that State Security was in overall command on the planet makes your blood run cold but they might not have been as brutal on the planet's population as other location- transfers from Haven (especialy the political & military prisoners).

It sounded from the glimpse that Haven has allowed the spread of the information/knowlege/theories about what happened to the original Santuary Colony into the Sanctuary population. Whatever religious and cultural beliefs and systems had been in existence on Santuary when Haven showd up, they seem to be being exposed to what information Haven's researchers have been able to uncover.

ROH might be able to change the mix of what is going on fairly quickly. With SS out of the picture, the probability of mistreatment has already dropped.

If Pritchard wanted to think out-of-the-box, perhaps she SHOULD approach Elizabeth and Honor with this problem.
Recall that ROH has been working on plebiscites for systems taken over-primarily by the Legislaturalists / PRH. The process is not finished. ROH has been described as attempting to meet the wishes of the former subject populations. We shall see.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:29 pm

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kzt wrote:The MAN is very careful to follow the accepted laws of war, much more scrupulously than the SLN. They might obliterate the orbital infrastructure but they won't directly strike the planet. It certainly will be a very bad day, but it's not genocide.

I somewhat agree. That is why I surmised the MAN would utilize their stealth ability to effect a completely surgical strike rewriting the book on EEV because their tech puts the capability into their hands. And because the MAlign would surely know as well as we know that in the case of genocide a galaxy wide APB would be put out on their heads.

Yet, obliterating the Sanctuarians' orbital infrastructure could end with the same results, intentional or not. How many tugboats do you suppose the Havenites have in Santuarian space that could intercept errant fragments? Huge fragments in the Manticoran case of Oyster Bay. (BTW, I wonder what the butcher bill would have been if no fragments were intercepted during Oyster Bay?)

Especially in light of the fact that the MAN may feel the GA has the ability to detect them now, they may go in hard causing orbital debris that could severely damage the planet, though the planet itself may not have been targeted.

What can be said to the Sanctuarians in that case besides "Oops."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:59 pm

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cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:The MAN is very careful to follow the accepted laws of war, much more scrupulously than the SLN. They might obliterate the orbital infrastructure but they won't directly strike the planet. It certainly will be a very bad day, but it's not genocide.

I somewhat agree. That is why I surmised the MAN would utilize their stealth ability to effect a completely surgical strike rewriting the book on EEV because their tech puts the capability into their hands. And because the MAlign would surely know as well as we know that in the case of genocide a galaxy wide APB would be put out on their heads.

Yet, obliterating the Sanctuarians' orbital infrastructure could end with the same results, intentional or not. How many tugboats do you suppose the Havenites have in Santuarian space that could intercept errant fragments? Huge fragments in the Manticoran case of Oyster Bay. (BTW, I wonder what the butcher bill would have been if no fragments were intercepted during Oyster Bay?)

Especially in light of the fact that the MAN may feel the GA has the ability to detect them now, they may go in hard causing orbital debris that could severely damage the planet, though the planet itself may not have been targeted.

What can be said to the Sanctuarians in that case besides "Oops."


Take a deep breath.

Remember who's the commanding Admiral in Bolthole. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had a "development" version of Moiarty in place long since, and have upgraded it to a "development" version of Mycroft. It probably doesn't look a whole lot like the production version though, since parts of that come from Beowulf.

Also, the MAlign decided not to try a second strike because it would be too likely to fail. That was Albrecht's decision. Now that Albrecht is out of the picture, Rufino C. at least, is considering going deeper into the shadows. What Benjamin or Colin will decide is something I don't know, but we don't know that they survived.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by shayvaan   » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:42 pm

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JohnRoth wrote: <snip>
Also, the MAlign decided not to try a second strike because it would be too likely to fail. That was Albrecht's decision. Now that Albrecht is out of the picture, Rufino C. at least, is considering going deeper into the shadows. What Benjamin or Colin will decide is something I don't know, but we don't know that they survived.


Actually, the second strike was ALBRECHT'S idea, the boys talked him out of it, mostly because, they could not afford to lose the personnel that they needed as the nucleus of their fleet once the Detweilers had commissioned.
Also at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts it specifically mentions that at least one of the boys (Benjamin, I believe) had already evacuated.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:07 pm

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shayvaan wrote:
JohnRoth wrote: <snip>
Also, the MAlign decided not to try a second strike because it would be too likely to fail. That was Albrecht's decision. Now that Albrecht is out of the picture, Rufino C. at least, is considering going deeper into the shadows. What Benjamin or Colin will decide is something I don't know, but we don't know that they survived.


Actually, the second strike was ALBRECHT'S idea, the boys talked him out of it, mostly because, they could not afford to lose the personnel that they needed as the nucleus of their fleet once the Detweilers had commissioned.
Also at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts it specifically mentions that at least one of the boys (Benjamin, I believe) had already evacuated.


Actually, we know that all of the clones and their families were evacuated:

from the 2nd to last chapter of SoV:

“All luck ends eventually, Albrecht, and the boys and the grandchildren are all out there in Darius. You got them out, and you were smart enough to get all of them involved practically from the time they could walk. You and I may not see it, but you know they’ll keep right on going, exactly the way you would have."


After Evelina's statement above, they pop the bombs about 20 seconds later, killing themselves and the rest of the stranded Houdini evacuees and the rest of the "cull" list- simultaneously removing that last of the evidence of the Malign from the planet and convicting Manticore in atrocities killing 10's of thousands to millions.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:31 pm

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JohnRoth wrote: <snip>
Also, the MAlign decided not to try a second strike because it would be too likely to fail. That was Albrecht's decision. Now that Albrecht is out of the picture, Rufino C. at least, is considering going deeper into the shadows. What Benjamin or Colin will decide is something I don't know, but we don't know that they survived.


shayvaan wrote:Actually, the second strike was ALBRECHT'S idea, the boys talked him out of it, mostly because, they could not afford to lose the personnel that they needed as the nucleus of their fleet once the Detweilers had commissioned.
Also at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts it specifically mentions that at least one of the boys (Benjamin, I believe) had already evacuated.


Theemile wrote:Actually, we know that all of the clones and their families were evacuated:

from the 2nd to last chapter of SoV:

“All luck ends eventually, Albrecht, and the boys and the grandchildren are all out there in Darius. You got them out, and you were smart enough to get all of them involved practically from the time they could walk. You and I may not see it, but you know they’ll keep right on going, exactly the way you would have."


After Evelina's statement above, they pop the bombs about 20 seconds later, killing themselves and the rest of the stranded Houdini evacuees and the rest of the "cull" list- simultaneously removing that last of the evidence of the Malign from the planet and convicting Manticore in atrocities killing 10's of thousands to millions.


Actually, what we know is that Evelina thinks they're on Darius. We haven't actually seen it, and we don't know why Evilina thinks that. Until RFC shows us that Benjamin or Colin are actually on Darius, the issue is still open.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:44 pm

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JohnRoth wrote: <snip>
Also, the MAlign decided not to try a second strike because it would be too likely to fail. That was Albrecht's decision. Now that Albrecht is out of the picture, Rufino C. at least, is considering going deeper into the shadows. What Benjamin or Colin will decide is something I don't know, but we don't know that they survived.


Actually, the second strike was ALBRECHT'S idea, the boys talked him out of it, mostly because, they could not afford to lose the personnel that they needed as the nucleus of their fleet once the Detweilers had commissioned.
[/quote]

Good catch.

shayvaan wrote:Also at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts it specifically mentions that at least one of the boys (Benjamin, I believe) had already evacuated.


I did a quick look all the way back to Chapter 46, and I couldn't find it. In SoV Rufino C. is quite specific that it's Colin that hasn't arrived, so you could be quite correct that Benjamin has. And one of those two has to be the new *A*, uh, I mean Alpha Prime.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:03 am

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cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:The MAN is very careful to follow the accepted laws of war, much more scrupulously than the SLN. They might obliterate the orbital infrastructure but they won't directly strike the planet. It certainly will be a very bad day, but it's not genocide.

I somewhat agree. That is why I surmised the MAN would utilize their stealth ability to effect a completely surgical strike rewriting the book on EEV because their tech puts the capability into their hands. And because the MAlign would surely know as well as we know that in the case of genocide a galaxy wide APB would be put out on their heads.

Yet, obliterating the Sanctuarians' orbital infrastructure could end with the same results, intentional or not. How many tugboats do you suppose the Havenites have in Santuarian space that could intercept errant fragments? Huge fragments in the Manticoran case of Oyster Bay. (BTW, I wonder what the butcher bill would have been if no fragments were intercepted during Oyster Bay?)

Especially in light of the fact that the MAN may feel the GA has the ability to detect them now, they may go in hard causing orbital debris that could severely damage the planet, though the planet itself may not have been targeted.

What can be said to the Sanctuarians in that case besides "Oops."
JohnRoth wrote:Take a deep breath.

Remember who's the commanding Admiral in Bolthole. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had a "development" version of Moiarty in place long since, and have upgraded it to a "development" version of Mycroft. It probably doesn't look a whole lot like the production version though, since parts of that come from Beowulf.

Perhaps so. OTOH, there could be complacency born out of a sense of security because it is hidden and there isn't any or little expectation of being invaded. Which would allow the MAN to find themselves as fortunate as did the American fighters finding Yamamoto's carrier—with the system basically naked and unprepared as far as Mycroft and the ships are sitting in orbit with wedges down. One big happy family waiting to get reamed.

JohnRoth wrote:Also, the MAlign decided not to try a second strike because it would be too likely to fail. That was Albrecht's decision. Now that Albrecht is out of the picture, Rufino C. at least, is considering going deeper into the shadows. What Benjamin or Colin will decide is something I don't know, but we don't know that they survived.

Perhaps so John. But we don't know if the MAlign would adhere to their schedule if they caught wind of the existence and location of a Havenite Bolthole, or if they'd momentarily detour their plans again, as they did with the Manticoran home system.


As my unmassaged memory 'membered as has been pointed out, most of the concern was based on the MAlign's lack of cannon fodder, meat for the butcher. As soon as they can "grow" or what ever the hell it is that they do to get crew, that may change.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:20 am

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One thing we can probably take as a given. The Havenites have not been forthcoming with the Sanctuarians by letting them know that the RHN's "involvement" with them in their orbit may bring war to their doorsteps.

And we know that the population itself is not prepared or had any experience with invasion. On planets like Manticore, Haven and the League there are probably fallout shelters which begin filling at the sound of a system alarm.

The population at large would be as innocent and naked as Abby was while she was staring up at the pinpricks of light in the night sky, not knowing that that burning fire seen in the atmosphere is actually errant debris on a trajectory right for their heads.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:54 am

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cthia wrote:One thing we can probably take as a given. The Havenites have not been forthcoming with the Sanctuarians by letting them know that the RHN's "involvement" with them in their orbit may bring war to their doorsteps.

And we know that the population itself is not prepared or had any experience with invasion. On planets like Manticore, Haven and the League there are probably fallout shelters which begin filling at the sound of a system alarm.

The population at large would be as innocent and naked as Abby was while she was staring up at the pinpricks of light in the night sky, not knowing that that burning fire seen in the atmosphere is actually errant debris on a trajectory right for their heads.

This doesn't follow at all. They have known for decades that they are the Hidden arsenal of the PRH (and the RH). Given that fact, they have to know that they are vulnerable if the location of Bolt hole is discovered by the enemy.
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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