Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], dlewis0160, Google [Bot] and 17 guests

Oh, what the heck . . .

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:38 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

The people of Sanctuary have been exploited in the sense that they have been deprived of their choice of how they relate to the galaxy at large.

But from the sound of the snippet, Haven has improved their overall well being, educational and material.

I can also see the value in keeping Sanctuary isolated until the war with the MA and the Sollys is resolved.

So perhaps one way to deal with the situation would be to make sure that Santuary enjoys a stronger share of the wealth they are creating by their labor.

It's not an ideal solution by any means. But unfortunately, the struggle with the MA is a struggle for humanity's future and the "moral" choice ends up being the lesser of two evils.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:00 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10029
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

n7axw wrote:The people of Sanctuary have been exploited in the sense that they have been deprived of their choice of how they relate to the galaxy at large.

But from the sound of the snippet, Haven has improved their overall well being, educational and material.

I can also see the value in keeping Sanctuary isolated until the war with the MA and the Sollys is resolved.

So perhaps one way to deal with the situation would be to make sure that Santuary enjoys a stronger share of the wealth they are creating by their labor.

It's not an ideal solution by any means. But unfortunately, the struggle with the MA is a struggle for humanity's future and the "moral" choice ends up being the lesser of two evils.

Don

-


Indeed, but it goes much deeper than that.


They are being deprived from their sense of self. Deprived from knowing who they are. It is quite difficult to place oneself in the shoes of a people who have no identity, no sense of creation, no sense of religion, the idea of a God, no true history. It is difficult to know where you are going unless you know where you've been.

They are being exploited by denying their basic individual rights and recognition that they are human. They are being denied their natural course. They are being denied choice. Birthright! Think they're getting a well rounded education, or a tailored one?

They are stranded on Gilligan's island and the sailboat is kept just out of distance.

What Haven has masterminded is nothing less than glorified indentured servitude.

Would they choose to make weapons of mass destruction to kill those they do not even know?

They have an entire system of slaves that they pay with books, updated plumbing, efficient lighting systems, etc.

They are working for food. Food being the necessities of life. So what -- if they are being treated a little better than the average slave in the slave quarters and are being allowed to stay inside the home with the master. They are still being enslaved and denied the very thing that Haven fights for -- freedom. And to build their own planetary Constitution.

What right does Haven have to make enemies against the Sanctuarians. Making the Sanctuarians guilty by complicity. Making enemies of a galaxy they've never even seen.

This is exploitation of the shameful, inhumane kind.

It is rotten to the core. The leopard is a chameleon with changing spots. I can't see Elizabeth sleeping after becoming privy to something like this. It is not the way of the Manticorans. It could throw a monkey wrench into the GA.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:23 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10029
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

What's worse is that Haven has brought the rudiments of war on the Sanctuarians' virgin doorsteps.

If the MAlign gets wind of Bolthole's location and decimates the planet, that would be so cold and cruel of the universe. Yet it is exactly the door Haven has opened up on the Sanctuarians -- w/o their knowledge or consent.

The door is hidden -- but it ain't locked. Haven had no right to bring war to their doorsteps.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by kzt   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:16 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9458
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

The MAN is very careful to follow the accepted laws of war, much more scrupulously than the SLN. They might obliterate the orbital infrastructure but they won't directly strike the planet. It certainly will be a very bad day, but it's not genocide.
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:28 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10029
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

n7axw wrote:The people of Sanctuary have been exploited in the sense that they have been deprived of their choice of how they relate to the galaxy at large.

But from the sound of the snippet, Haven has improved their overall well being, educational and material.

I can also see the value in keeping Sanctuary isolated until the war with the MA and the Sollys is resolved.

So perhaps one way to deal with the situation would be to make sure that Santuary enjoys a stronger share of the wealth they are creating by their labor.

It's not an ideal solution by any means. But unfortunately, the struggle with the MA is a struggle for humanity's future and the "moral" choice ends up being the lesser of two evils.

Don

-
My bold.

I really like this thought.

Thing is, did there have to be any evils committed at all? Why couldn't Haven approximate, as best they could have under the circumstances, the same thing that the Manticoran government offered to Grayson?

Honesty first, then negotiating the Sanctuarians' help in good faith. Leveling with the Sanctuaries why they would have to insist on their anonymity? Divulging immediately the things they had a right to know?

Akin to the proverb "You attract more flies with honey than vinegar." And a relationship formed in respect and based on trust endures in the end and pays dividends down the road as well.

If the answer comes down to finances then voilà, proof positive the Sanctuarians are being cheated. As if. :roll:

We already know that funding was a problem from textev, trying to hide so much money being diverted to Bolthole.

However, textev never mentioned, IINM, the thousands of professionals being exported out of system. A fair chunk of them had to come from Haven, as recidivistic prisoners would be a bit behind in current tech.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:48 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

cthia wrote:What's worse is that Haven has brought the rudiments of war on the Sanctuarians' virgin doorsteps.


What part of "Evil Empire" -- aka Legislaturalists and/or Committee of Public Safety -- are you having trouble with? Of course the Sanctuarians weren't asked their preferences and were unwilling arsenal workers.

The problem now is what the New Republic of Haven is how to balance the necessity of military secrecy vs self-determination and access to a wider universe.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:16 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10029
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:What's worse is that Haven has brought the rudiments of war on the Sanctuarians' virgin doorsteps.


What part of "Evil Empire" -- aka Legislaturalists and/or Committee of Public Safety -- are you having trouble with? Of course the Sanctuarians weren't asked their preferences and were unwilling arsenal workers.

The problem now is what the New Republic of Haven is how to balance the necessity of military secrecy vs self-determination and access to a wider universe.

Evil Empire indeed! As cthia still fumes!

Having trouble with all of the "Legs" in the ... 'laturalists. And the ironically coined "Committee of Public Safety." :roll:

But your point is well taken. Cthia has to take a chill pill and forgive and forget. Just that when it comes to the Old Republic, I was holding on to Beth's grudge as tight as she. Haven't yet taken my stuffed one off of the wall.

Unlike most readers, I didn't see any good in the characters of Haven until long after they did. I certainly didn't and couldn't see what our resident rose saw so soon. Is why I respect her so dearly.

I suppose that the Evil Empire sowed so many bad seeds that they keep sprouting up like weeds. It is the gift that keeps on giving. I suppose that the planet itself is still dealing with the fallout as well, as much as Earth is still suffering the ill effects of the evil Nazi war machine and its evil progenitor. Still.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:44 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

It is exactly the Legislaturalists and then Committee of Public Safety who put Santuary in this position.
From one perspective, they treated it only a bit better than the various systems that were conquered though outright millitary assault or manipulation such as OFS practices.

We have NOT been told that there was wholesale slaughter on Santuary, not yet even a mention of wat was done to the government(s) that existed on the planet when Haven showed up. Remember, these people are being described as approximately Earth AD 1850 so no space presence, no aircraft (I would give you hot air balloons if you like) and certainly not exactly able to stand up to any sizable force which PRH could have landed. We just don't know what happened between that time and the point at which the ROH took over from the SS administration overseeing the administration of the planet and the various Havenite politicall and military prisoners it moved there along with the techs/teacher and apparently anthhropologists/researchers/archeologists to study what had happened to the colony from when they arrived on planet untill Haven's military survey ship arrived. Just having been told that State Security was in overall command on the planet makes your blood run cold but they might not have been as brutal on the planet's population as other location- transfers from Haven (especialy the political & military prisoners).

It sounded from the glimpse that Haven has allowed the spread of the information/knowlege/theories about what happened to the original Santuary Colony into the Sanctuary population. Whatever religious and cultural beliefs and systems had been in existence on Santuary when Haven showd up, they seem to be being exposed to what information Haven's researchers have been able to uncover.

ROH might be able to change the mix of what is going on fairly quickly. With SS out of the picture, the probability of mistreatment has already dropped.

If Pritchard wanted to think out-of-the-box, perhaps she SHOULD approach Elizabeth and Honor with this problem.
Recall that ROH has been working on plebiscites for systems taken over-primarily by the Legislaturalists / PRH. The process is not finished. ROH has been described as attempting to meet the wishes of the former subject populations. We shall see.
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:02 am

fallsfromtrees
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1771
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:51 am
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Brigade XO wrote:It is exactly the Legislaturalists and then Committee of Public Safety who put Santuary in this position.
From one perspective, they treated it only a bit better than the various systems that were conquered though outright millitary assault or manipulation such as OFS practices.

We have NOT been told that there was wholesale slaughter on Santuary, not yet even a mention of wat was done to the government(s) that existed on the planet when Haven showed up. Remember, these people are being described as approximately Earth AD 1850 so no space presence, no aircraft (I would give you hot air balloons if you like) and certainly not exactly able to stand up to any sizable force which PRH could have landed. We just don't know what happened between that time and the point at which the ROH took over from the SS administration overseeing the administration of the planet and the various Havenite politicall and military prisoners it moved there along with the techs/teacher and apparently anthhropologists/researchers/archeologists to study what had happened to the colony from when they arrived on planet untill Haven's military survey ship arrived. Just having been told that State Security was in overall command on the planet makes your blood run cold but they might not have been as brutal on the planet's population as other location- transfers from Haven (especialy the political & military prisoners).

It sounded from the glimpse that Haven has allowed the spread of the information/knowlege/theories about what happened to the original Santuary Colony into the Sanctuary population. Whatever religious and cultural beliefs and systems had been in existence on Santuary when Haven showd up, they seem to be being exposed to what information Haven's researchers have been able to uncover.

ROH might be able to change the mix of what is going on fairly quickly. With SS out of the picture, the probability of mistreatment has already dropped.

If Pritchard wanted to think out-of-the-box, perhaps she SHOULD approach Elizabeth and Honor with this problem.
Recall that ROH has been working on plebiscites for systems taken over-primarily by the Legislaturalists / PRH. The process is not finished. ROH has been described as attempting to meet the wishes of the former subject populations. We shall see.

The only problem with consulting with Honor or Elizabeth, is that it appears that the snippet is set immediately after St. Just was summarily executed by Theismann, so the GA is a good 5 years off.
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
Top
Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:02 am

JohnRoth
Admiral

Posts: 2342
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA

fallsfromtrees wrote:The only problem with consulting with Honor or Elizabeth, is that it appears that the snippet is set immediately after St. Just was summarily executed by Theismann, so the GA is a good 5 years off.


True.

The research crew from Weyland is headed for Bolthole. I doubt if that would be happening if the situation hadn't been dealt with. In any case, I expect that both Honor and the Empress know the situation.
Top

Return to Honorverse