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Oh, what the heck . . .

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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:16 pm

JohnRoth
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Brigade XO wrote:President Pritchard had a very large tangled ball- moral, political, economic, military and security with Sanctuary.

Particularly with the Alignment on top of the problem of Solarian League wanting to crush the GA, keeping Bolt Hole a secure location is massive. How to continue to contain the information is critical

It is Haven's- and now a major source to Manticore- only secure heavy industry and military construction location.
We really don't know the political situation in-system though with more than a billion people, some of them have got to be unhappy with Haven essentialy having taken over and are running the system. They had the earlier (and undoubtedly unfortunate ) experience with State Security being in control and not is is PROBABLY ROH Military in the top govenmental positions. We have no info yet on how any of the Santuary population fits other than as a productive and probably agressively active workforce vs being "citizens" of the now Republic of Haven

Bolt hole may or may not be generating any exports beyond military and military related products for Haven (and now also Manticore). They may or may not be contributing to development of new processes and new inventions. One way of another, Haven has been the source of funding and end user of all that equipment/ships though we don't know what may have been "paid" to Santuary in return for that. Need more explination. Darius is in a similar situation thought clearly the same narrative of The Detweiler Plan and Darius being the proud arsenal creating all the things needed to defend the Alignment isn't being flogged (we don't think) on Santuary.

For all we know, State Security may have set up manufacturing for export goods with our without the agreement of PRH's leadership so that PRH (or at least SS) could start generating income/cash flow and funding. ROH may also have at least tried to diversify the industries to provide for some of it's own internal consumer and commercial goods along with a source of export products. At what point would they be willing to let the people of Santuary (not the PRH/ROH citizens) start taking over existing assest or developing their own.

At what point can ROH even think of letting people of Santuary- and anybody who has moved there from PRH/ROH, out of the system? That includes letting them serve in the ROH military and being part of ship's crews in ROHN or any of it merchant marine? You let them out and word spreads.

Messy. Not as messy as Darius, but messy.

President Pritchard has to wrestle with being able to have Santuary acknowleged (along with it's history and struggles) to the outside universe vs continuing to be


I keep seeing this comparison to Darius. Darius was not occupied prior to the MAlign taking it over. The people on Darius do not have their own history that then got taken over. They don't have any memories of doing it differently.

I think the more appropriate comparison is to a Verge system after it's taken over by a corrupt Solarian transstellar.

Granted, the industrial situation is similar to Darius, but the social, legal, etc situation seems more similar to the Verge systems. And that is the part of the situation that several of us seem to be interested in.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:48 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:President Pritchard had a very large tangled ball- moral, political, economic, military and security with Sanctuary.

Particularly with the Alignment on top of the problem of Solarian League wanting to crush the GA, keeping Bolt Hole a secure location is massive. How to continue to contain the information is critical

It is Haven's- and now a major source to Manticore- only secure heavy industry and military construction location.
We really don't know the political situation in-system though with more than a billion people, some of them have got to be unhappy with Haven essentialy having taken over and are running the system. They had the earlier (and undoubtedly unfortunate ) experience with State Security being in control and not is is PROBABLY ROH Military in the top govenmental positions. We have no info yet on how any of the Santuary population fits other than as a productive and probably agressively active workforce vs being "citizens" of the now Republic of Haven

Bolt hole may or may not be generating any exports beyond military and military related products for Haven (and now also Manticore). They may or may not be contributing to development of new processes and new inventions. One way of another, Haven has been the source of funding and end user of all that equipment/ships though we don't know what may have been "paid" to Santuary in return for that. Need more explination. Darius is in a similar situation thought clearly the same narrative of The Detweiler Plan and Darius being the proud arsenal creating all the things needed to defend the Alignment isn't being flogged (we don't think) on Santuary.

For all we know, State Security may have set up manufacturing for export goods with our without the agreement of PRH's leadership so that PRH (or at least SS) could start generating income/cash flow and funding. ROH may also have at least tried to diversify the industries to provide for some of it's own internal consumer and commercial goods along with a source of export products. At what point would they be willing to let the people of Santuary (not the PRH/ROH citizens) start taking over existing assest or developing their own.

At what point can ROH even think of letting people of Santuary- and anybody who has moved there from PRH/ROH, out of the system? That includes letting them serve in the ROH military and being part of ship's crews in ROHN or any of it merchant marine? You let them out and word spreads.

Messy. Not as messy as Darius, but messy.

President Pritchard has to wrestle with being able to have Santuary acknowleged (along with it's history and struggles) to the outside universe vs continuing to be


I keep seeing this comparison to Darius. Darius was not occupied prior to the MAlign taking it over. The people on Darius do not have their own history that then got taken over. They don't have any memories of doing it differently.

I think the more appropriate comparison is to a Verge system after it's taken over by a corrupt Solarian transstellar.

Granted, the industrial situation is similar to Darius, but the social, legal, etc situation seems more similar to the Verge systems. And that is the part of the situation that several of us seem to be interested in.


But, they are not being exploited. The old PRH poured money and resources into the system. They went from ~ 1850s technology and medicine (basic germ theory, 75% child mortality rate, lifespan of 40ish years) to prolong and countergrav. They were educated, and given jobs, with the only caveat that they not leave the system.

We do not know how intrusive the take over was, but from their industriousness, they seem to have enjoyed the situation.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:08 pm

cthia
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JohnRoth wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:President Pritchard had a very large tangled ball- moral, political, economic, military and security with Sanctuary.

Particularly with the Alignment on top of the problem of Solarian League wanting to crush the GA, keeping Bolt Hole a secure location is massive. How to continue to contain the information is critical

It is Haven's- and now a major source to Manticore- only secure heavy industry and military construction location.
We really don't know the political situation in-system though with more than a billion people, some of them have got to be unhappy with Haven essentialy having taken over and are running the system. They had the earlier (and undoubtedly unfortunate ) experience with State Security being in control and not is is PROBABLY ROH Military in the top govenmental positions. We have no info yet on how any of the Santuary population fits other than as a productive and probably agressively active workforce vs being "citizens" of the now Republic of Haven

Bolt hole may or may not be generating any exports beyond military and military related products for Haven (and now also Manticore). They may or may not be contributing to development of new processes and new inventions. One way of another, Haven has been the source of funding and end user of all that equipment/ships though we don't know what may have been "paid" to Santuary in return for that. Need more explination. Darius is in a similar situation thought clearly the same narrative of The Detweiler Plan and Darius being the proud arsenal creating all the things needed to defend the Alignment isn't being flogged (we don't think) on Santuary.

For all we know, State Security may have set up manufacturing for export goods with our without the agreement of PRH's leadership so that PRH (or at least SS) could start generating income/cash flow and funding. ROH may also have at least tried to diversify the industries to provide for some of it's own internal consumer and commercial goods along with a source of export products. At what point would they be willing to let the people of Santuary (not the PRH/ROH citizens) start taking over existing assest or developing their own.

At what point can ROH even think of letting people of Santuary- and anybody who has moved there from PRH/ROH, out of the system? That includes letting them serve in the ROH military and being part of ship's crews in ROHN or any of it merchant marine? You let them out and word spreads.

Messy. Not as messy as Darius, but messy.

President Pritchard has to wrestle with being able to have Santuary acknowleged (along with it's history and struggles) to the outside universe vs continuing to be


I keep seeing this comparison to Darius. Darius was not occupied prior to the MAlign taking it over. The people on Darius do not have their own history that then got taken over. They don't have any memories of doing it differently.

I think the more appropriate comparison is to a Verge system after it's taken over by a corrupt Solarian transstellar.

Granted, the industrial situation is similar to Darius, but the social, legal, etc situation seems more similar to the Verge systems. And that is the part of the situation that several of us seem to be interested in.
Theemile wrote:But, they are not being exploited. The old PRH poured money and resources into the system. They went from ~ 1850s technology and medicine (basic germ theory, 75% child mortality rate, lifespan of 40ish years) to prolong and countergrav. They were educated, and given jobs, with the only caveat that they not leave the system.

We do not know how intrusive the take over was, but from their industriousness, they seem to have enjoyed the situation.


:o

Surely Eloise nor Theisman would swallow that. Heck, I doubt whether even the Legislaturalists would cop to that one.

In a sense though, you're correct. They are not being exploited. They are being seriously and shamefully exploited.

Exploitation is always, at the very least, a moral matter. Read Pritchard's thoughts again on the issue.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Annachie   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:25 am

Annachie
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I wonder if Louis is refering to the Lensmen series, I think it was Triplanetary specifically but could have been Galactic Patrol. Been a while.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:02 am

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Annachie wrote:I wonder if Louis is refering to the Lensmen series, I think it was Triplanetary specifically but could have been Galactic Patrol. Been a while.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Oh - yes - I think your're right. Suprise fleet turning up to blat the attack on Chicago?? words like 'Arsenal of democracy' ring a faint bell :-)

Good spot!
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by robert132   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:00 pm

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cthia wrote:
robert132 wrote:The question occurs to me, now that the equation has changed so markedly with the new alliance between Haven and The Star Empire, what does President Pritchard do with regards to the people of Sanctuary?

Does she offer them a plebiscite with a choice of eventual system independence or full citizenship in the Republic, or does she go another way because of the way these people were treated first by the Legislaturalists and later by the succeeding People's Republic?

That could be worth 2 or 3 novels easily, laying out the history of the system post discovery up through the implementation of whatever course is decided.


Good question which begets many more.

I think she owes them full citizenship if that isn't getting the cart before the horse -- a cart pending what come's out of the horse's mouth regarding the horse's heart about being used, pawned, taken advantage of, and deceived. Once the galaxy at large finds out about them then courting them is open season. Lawfully, Haven would have no claim on them. In fact, this could become a point of contention between Haven and Manticore if the Sanctuarians were to choose to become part of the Star Kingdom. OMG, what if they chose to become part of the League? Their "motherland."

Considering their present level of technological ignorance, they are vulnerable to even the poorest of pirates.

It is obvious that they are also owed reparations.


After thinking on it for a while we MIGHT find a possible way out for President Pritchard in what was done with The Philippines after the Spanish American War.

Commonwealth or Territorial status for a set period of time while the RoH and the Territorial government work to bring the educational levels and standards of living up to a level equal to most other Havenite worlds.

The status of the (admittedly) military installations in-system do not change, at least at first and certainly not while the RoH is involved in a shooting war with the SL.

Traffic through the Wormhole is still under control of the RoH Navy and the Haven end location is still classified "Top Secret - We Hang You If You Even Mention It!" while the aforementioned war is on going. While outsiders from the GA can travel to Sanctuary they do so only in Havenite ships and have NO access to nav data, nothing that could compromise the location of Bolthole.

Just my thoughts.

The political Gordian Knot Pritchard faces will have to be untied or untangled carefully. Cutting it as the ancient hero did may not be wise.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:23 pm

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robert132 wrote: Commonwealth or Territorial status for a set period of time while the RoH and the Territorial government work to bring the educational levels and standards of living up to a level equal to most other Havenite worlds.


Well Bolthole/Sanctuary probably has the highest/best education system of any Havenite system. Simply because the Legislaturalists, and especially the CSP realized they couldn't have idiots building their ships. Good case point, it wasn't until after Randsom mobilized the Dole workers to be excited to work that Haven system building rates/efficiency went up.

robert132 wrote:Traffic through the Wormhole is still under control of the RoH Navy and the Haven end location is still classified "Top Secret - We Hang You If You Even Mention It!" while the aforementioned war is on going. While outsiders from the GA can travel to Sanctuary they do so only in Havenite ships and have NO access to nav data, nothing that could compromise the location of Bolthole.


Well that rules out Anton Zilwicki, Sir Horace Harkness, and any others that approach those gods of programming, simply because Haven quite literally couldn't keep them out of the computer nets with anything less than total isolation in a brig. :lol:
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:41 pm

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robert132 wrote:Traffic through the Wormhole is still under control of the RoH Navy and the Haven end location is still classified "Top Secret - We Hang You If You Even Mention It!" while the aforementioned war is on going. While outsiders from the GA can travel to Sanctuary they do so only in Havenite ships and have NO access to nav data, nothing that could compromise the location of Bolthole.


I take it nobody is allowed to look at the sky?

Seriously. Given the relative location of a few dozen stars (magnitude, color) to within an arc-minute or so and access to a computer with a copy of the Galactic Atlas (Don't Leave Orbit Without It!) and the location is blown. Might want to add in the location of the Milky Way, the Magellanic Clouds and the Andromeda Nebula (all of which are naked eye objects.)

Minor astronomical note: for quite some time, there was no such thing as a K8 star. The scale went directly from K7 to M0. That's been rectified recently so that there are now K8 and K9 stars. (See Wikipedia - "K-type main-sequence stars" .)

These are red dwarfs, the habitable zone is so close in that any planets are probably tidally locked, and it's quite possible that flares and so forth have blasted out any atmosphere and scoured the surface clean.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:10 pm

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Sanctuary (Bolt Hole) is producing MODERN miliary starships with all the equipment needed to build and equip them. That would seem to indicate that the general educational and experience levels are at least as good as the best Peoples Republic of Haven if not the Republic of Haven.

We haven't been told anything about how the historic inhabitants of Santuary feel about Haven. Just exactly how long has Haven been there and pumping information/knowlege/technology into the planet and it's population base? If they went from approx AD 1850 Earth tec to PD 1900, in 50 or 75 years, that will have made a signifcant change in how they view Haven.
Of course, there are all the questions like: how much does either the general public or at least the leadership know about the revelations in backstory found by Haven in research etc. All those legends now sorted and provided with both background, context, updating with information.
There is at least (if they wish to beleve it) that Earth and much later the Solarian League had NO IDEA that the colony still existed. What efforts were made to find it much later in history may or may not be available.

PRH was just as bad as OFS in taking over Santuary. They didn't have to absorb it as they did so many other systems though outight military assault (like San Martin) but they did rescue the in the OFS sense and make them a secret protectorate.


Mr. Webber is puttig Pritchard and the rest of Haven's leadership in a very interesting situation. The "right thing" to do would be at least to offer citizenship in ROH (which they might even have now- we don't know).

The major offset to any of that including telling the galexy at large about them is making them a major target of both SL and the Alignment. That is both military and political since this would make wonderfull propaganda for SL and the Alignments's catspaws.

And yes, it would be interesting to try and keep individuals from the GA from getting looks at the sky, particularly if they are working with sensor equipment about the ships that are fitting out at Bolt Hole for Manticore. Might be a couple of pulsars visible to military grade sensors for navigation.

Pirates showing up to take advantage of Santuary--not so much. Just how many squadrons of ROH military ships are in the system at any one time not to start on those in trials or training up prior to assignment and deployment? Even if Santuary were to decide to become an independent systme, it would still be a major economic and military shipbuilding center for decades. How long to train SSDF with multiple squadrons of warships from DD through SD, not to mention modern (even if "only" ROH) LACs? Not to mention that there would be some sort of military alliance agreement with the likes of ROH (at least) if not also SEM? No garden-variety pirate stands a chance. You probably aren't going to take the system with a squadron of BCs. The real problem is a major in-system industrial strike on the order of Oyster Bay because this has now become the major supply point for military (and other) hardware for the GA.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:37 pm

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I agree that the Sanctuarians education has been greatly accelerated, though I think it may be putting the cart before the horse to assume that the planet at large is receiving the education they deserve, instead of simply what is needed to become productive ship builders. The education of the people of Haven itself wasn't what it should have been. And how much of the tech is actually allowed to them?

Also the dangerous recidivists whom they have imported to the system would still be the same dangerous recidivists to the secret that Haven keeps and to what they are trying to accomplish. How do they silence the recidivists from sowing seeds of hatred? And from sharing with the Sanctuarians what lies beyond their atmosphere. Heck, a minicomp with the Honorverse equivalent of wikipedia would be dangerous equipment, yet the use of personal computers would be impossible to deny if they are truly educating them.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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