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Oh, what the heck . . .

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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:26 am

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cthia wrote:Perhaps so. OTOH, there could be complacency born out of a sense of security because it is hidden and there isn't any or little expectation of being invaded. Which would allow the MAN to find themselves as fortunate as did the American fighters finding Yamamoto's carrier—with the system basically naked and unprepared as far as Mycroft and the ships are sitting in orbit with wedges down. One big happy family waiting to get reamed.
You mean when he was killed? That wasn't a carrier - he was in one of a pair of land-based Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" bomber in transport configuration; escorted by 6 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters.

But thanks to code breaking that he and his escort got jumped by 16 very long range Lockheed P-38 Lightning twin-engine fighters (to avoid overflying Japanese islands that might sound an alert they detoured out to sea requiring a 1000 round trip - plus fuel reserves for search, combat, emergencies).
So Yamamoto wasn't completely unaware of the risk, or his transport wouldn't have been escorted. But it was only thanks to code breaking giving a precise timeline that the US Air Forces longest ranged fighters were just barely able to intercept him -- and that they knew there was a valuable enough target to throw in unusually heavy forces.


Anyway, enough of the history details.

But if the MAlign do stumble over the location of Bolthole their tech is good enough there's a real risk they could sneak through whatever defenses Foraker has erected and smash up the yards there. It's hard stopping an invisible enemy - even if they leave a one potentially detectable 'knock' (hyper footprint) when they enter the area. Boltholes best (but hardly only) defense is still its secrecy.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:45 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Perhaps so. OTOH, there could be complacency born out of a sense of security because it is hidden and there isn't any or little expectation of being invaded. Which would allow the MAN to find themselves as fortunate as did the American fighters finding Yamamoto's carrier—with the system basically naked and unprepared as far as Mycroft and the ships are sitting in orbit with wedges down. One big happy family waiting to get reamed.
1. You mean when he was killed? That wasn't a carrier - he was in one of a pair of land-based Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" bomber in transport configuration; escorted by 6 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters.

But thanks to code breaking that he and his escort got jumped by 16 very long range Lockheed P-38 Lightning twin-engine fighters (to avoid overflying Japanese islands that might sound an alert they detoured out to sea requiring a 1000 round trip - plus fuel reserves for search, combat, emergencies).
So Yamamoto wasn't completely unaware of the risk, or his transport wouldn't have been escorted. But it was only thanks to code breaking giving a precise timeline that the US Air Forces longest ranged fighters were just barely able to intercept him -- and that they knew there was a valuable enough target to throw in unusually heavy forces.


Anyway, enough of the history details.

2. But if the MAlign do stumble over the location of Bolthole their tech is good enough there's a real risk they could sneak through whatever defenses Foraker has erected and smash up the yards there. It's hard stopping an invisible enemy - even if they leave a one potentially detectable 'knock' (hyper footprint) when they enter the area. Boltholes best (but hardly only) defense is still its secrecy.
Do pardon my numbering scheme for convenience.

1. Pardon my misquoting history—blame it all on shell shock and the realism of reenactment—and the close proximity mortar explosions. :mrgreen:

It was Vice Admiral Chūichi Nagumo's flagship, Akagi, Commanded by Captain Kiichi Hasegawa that was caught with its pants down and with weapons and fueled planes on deck with 28 American dive-bombers bearing down.

2. "Helloooo! We'rerrrrre back! Guess who've come for dinner?"

Isn't that an invisible enemy with invisible torpedoes?


.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:07 pm

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cthia wrote:Do pardon my numbering scheme for convenience.

1. Pardon my misquoting history—blame it all on shell shock and the realism of reenactment—and the close proximity mortar explosions. :mrgreen:

It was Vice Admiral Chūichi Nagumo's flagship, Akagi, Commanded by Captain Kiichi Hasegawa that was caught with its pant's down and with weapons and fueled planes on deck with 28 American dive-bombers.

2. "Helloooo! We'rerrrrre back! Guess who've come for dinner?"


Isn't that an invisible enemy with invisible torpedoes?

Ah, a different time the Japanese got caught out in WWII. Though I'd rate that was more a failure of fighter direction and lack of air search radar than true complacency.

They had combat air patrol fighters up, but partly because they didn't have a solid fighter direction system all the fighter got sucked down to low level to stop the torpedo bomber attacks - leaving the high level wide open with the somewhat lost dive bombers finally stumbled across the Japanese carriers.

Though to be fair, at that early point the the war US fighter direction wasn't the well polished system it became a couple years later. But it at least tried to avoid leaving bare spots in the fighter coverage -- assisted by the US having early air search radar to give raid warning and let them vector fighters (and potentially start launching additional ones)

Midway had all kinds of lucky breaks for the US and against the Japanese. (Well the US had some unlucky breaks too, like bad contact reports or planes heading to the wrong spot. But later very good luck largely mitigated them)
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:59 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Do pardon my numbering scheme for convenience.

1. Pardon my misquoting history—blame it all on shell shock and the realism of reenactment—and the close proximity mortar explosions. :mrgreen:

It was Vice Admiral Chūichi Nagumo's flagship, Akagi, Commanded by Captain Kiichi Hasegawa that was caught with its pant's down and with weapons and fueled planes on deck with 28 American dive-bombers.

2. "Helloooo! We'rerrrrre back! Guess who've come for dinner?"


Isn't that an invisible enemy with invisible torpedoes?

Ah, a different time the Japanese got caught out in WWII. Though I'd rate that was more a failure of fighter direction and lack of air search radar than true complacency.

They had combat air patrol fighters up, but partly because they didn't have a solid fighter direction system all the fighter got sucked down to low level to stop the torpedo bomber attacks - leaving the high level wide open with the somewhat lost dive bombers finally stumbled across the Japanese carriers.

Though to be fair, at that early point the the war US fighter direction wasn't the well polished system it became a couple years later. But it at least tried to avoid leaving bare spots in the fighter coverage -- assisted by the US having early air search radar to give raid warning and let them vector fighters (and potentially start launching additional ones)

Midway had all kinds of lucky breaks for the US and against the Japanese. (Well the US had some unlucky breaks too, like bad contact reports or planes heading to the wrong spot. But later very good luck largely mitigated them)


True. Though I wasn't exactly calling attention to the similarity of any complacencies, inasmuch as the nakedness and vulnerability to attack.

"Lucky? You feel the U.S. Navy was lucky? How dare you give them that much credit. They were downright blessed. Looked after by God," always rants my history buff of a sister when discussing the subject matter. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by saber964   » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:56 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Do pardon my numbering scheme for convenience.

1. Pardon my misquoting history—blame it all on shell shock and the realism of reenactment—and the close proximity mortar explosions. :mrgreen:

It was Vice Admiral Chūichi Nagumo's flagship, Akagi, Commanded by Captain Kiichi Hasegawa that was caught with its pant's down and with weapons and fueled planes on deck with 28 American dive-bombers.

2. "Helloooo! We'rerrrrre back! Guess who've come for dinner?"


Isn't that an invisible enemy with invisible torpedoes?

Ah, a different time the Japanese got caught out in WWII. Though I'd rate that was more a failure of fighter direction and lack of air search radar than true complacency.

They had combat air patrol fighters up, but partly because they didn't have a solid fighter direction system all the fighter got sucked down to low level to stop the torpedo bomber attacks - leaving the high level wide open with the somewhat lost dive bombers finally stumbled across the Japanese carriers.

Though to be fair, at that early point the the war US fighter direction wasn't the well polished system it became a couple years later. But it at least tried to avoid leaving bare spots in the fighter coverage -- assisted by the US having early air search radar to give raid warning and let them vector fighters (and potentially start launching additional ones)

Midway had all kinds of lucky breaks for the US and against the Japanese. (Well the US had some unlucky breaks too, like bad contact reports or planes heading to the wrong spot. But later very good luck largely mitigated them)



Actually Akagi's planes were not on the flight deck they were on the hanger deck ready to be taken up to the flight deck. The IJN carriers at the start of the fabulous four minutes were in the process of starting to turn into the wind to recover CAP aircraft and after that was done launch the second Midway strike. IJN procedures were different from USN one in aircraft handling. basically the IJN fueled and loaded ordinance on the hanger deck while the USN did it on the flight deck. when Akagi was hit it was only attacked by three SBD dive bombers. the bomber were commanded by Lt. Dick Best and his two wing men. When Best hit the Akagi it resulted in 1 hit and 2 near misses, The hit dropped by Best hit amidships 10ft aft of the midships elevator. The resulting explosion blew the elevator into the well and destroyed the ships CO2 bank flooding system, this hit also landed among parked aircraft waiting to be taken up to the flight deck. Near miss #2 hit aft and close aboard damaged the ships rudders
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:54 am

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While I'm up and posting snippets . . . .



_________________________________________

.III.

Long grass blows on the banks of Despair,
Guarding the graves of the dead.
Mountain storms weep for the sleeping,
And the God of the vanished
Walks through the hills
Calling the names of the gone.
— The Dark Fall Saga.

* * * * * * * * * *

“Madame President.”

The tall, silver haired man stood and walked around his desk to offer Eloise Pritchart his hand. Like most Sanctuarians, he was dark-skinned and that silver hair had once been dark brown, but his eyes were a light, startling blue. And like far too many Sanctuarians, he’d been too old for Prolong when the People’s Republic discovered Refuge.

At least that’s one damned thing the Legislaturalists got right, Pritchart thought as she crossed the spacious office to meet him. They even offered it universally, not restricted solely to people working for them, the way they did the advanced degree programs.

Shirkahna Ambart,” she responded taking his hand in the three-fingered grip that was the Sanctuarian version of a handshake.

Shirkahna was her host’s title, which the protocolists told her translated literally as “shepherd” but could also be translated as both “warlord” or “sentinel.” Apparently, Sanctuarian was a . . . flexible language. However it translated, however, Shirkahna Ambart VIII was the hereditary ruler of Ankhassar, Sanctuary’s most ancient and powerful pre-rediscovery empire. That had simplified things when the Legislaturalists went looking for someone to run the native side of the planet for them.

Like all Sanctuarians, the shirkahna used only one name publicly. Legally, Sanctuary usage attached both a patronymic and a matronymic, so technically, he was Ambart Ambartson-Melynyson, although no one would ever address him as such.

“Please, be seated,” he invited, escorting her across the sunny chamber towards a conversational nook below the windows overlooking the paved courtyard below. Sheila Thiessen, the head of Pritchart’s personal security detail, drifted silently and unobtrusively along behind. Aside from bodyguards and high ranking military offiers, no armed Sanctuarian was ever allowed in the shirkahana’s presence, yet Ambart took no notice at all of Thiessen’s presence.

He waved Pritchart into a comfortable armchair, looking out through the tower window at a deep blue sky. Anvil-headed cumulonimbus clouds swept towards Mountain Fort, crowned in the flicker of distant lightning, and the temperature had been dropping steadily when she arrived. In fact, her shuttle flight crew had clearly been relieved to get her safely on the ground before the looming thunderstorms arrived.

She hoped the weather wasn’t some sort of metaphor for her visit.

Below the fourth-floor window, the city of Mountain Fort sprawled out about the looming castle which had given its name to the entire city. Mountain Fort had been Ankhassa’s imperial city for the past six hundred local years. Its population would scarcely have qualified as a moderate-sized town on Nouveau Paris, but its quarter-million people made it the largest city on Sanctuary and the low-lying architecture of a pre-counter-grav civilization made it look even larger.

“Thank you for making an opportunity for me to meet with you,” she said as Thiessen settled behind her shoulder.

“Under the circumstances, it seemed the thing to do.” Ambart’s Standard English carried a slight accent — he’d been in his mid-thirties before he learned to speak it — but the edge of dry amusement came through clearly and he tilted his head to one side. “In fact, I was rather surprised that you requested a meeting. I believe the highest ranking member of Haven’s government ever to visit Refuge — civilian member, I mean — was Foreign Secretary Bergen when he signed our intial treaty with my father. And I fear the People’s Republic’s — I mean, the Republic’s — representatives’ contacts since have been a bit more . . . peremptory, shall we say?”

“I don’t doubt it.” Pritchart shook her own head. “My . . . predecessors weren’t noted for ‘wasting’ courtesy when they didn’t need to.”

“I’m afraid that’s been my own observation,” the shirkahna said. “Which, I trust you’ll forgive me for pointing out, seemed to just a bit . . . ironic for such an egalitarian regime.”

Pritchart hid a wince, although his point was well taken. Especially coming from a man whose family had ruled almost a third of his homeworld for the last several centuries.

“You’re right,” she said. “In fact, having waded through the last thirty or forty T-years of reports, memos, and correspondence, I’d have to say that I detect a certain . . . imperious note in all of the previous regime’s conversations with you.”

“I’m sure you do. Although, to be fair, I doubt many Sanctuarians would find that out of place. The average lifespan here on Sanctuary, even for those without Prolong, has increased by thirty percent since the Republic discovered us. The standard of living has probably risen by no more than, oh, ten or twenty thousand percent, and it’s continued to follow a steadily rising trajectory for over half my lifetime.” He smiled almost whimsically. “Against that backdrop, a certain degree of what I suppose one might call proprietary authority is probably understandable.”

“Understandable but not exactly commendable,” Pritchart said. He arched an eyebrow at her, and she shrugged with less than complete happiness.

Shirkahna Ambart,” she said then, “I’ve come to see you not simply because some sort of courtesy visit from the Republic’s chief executive is so long overdue, but also because I find myself in a quandary. A deep and, to be honest, very difficult one.”


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by Fireflair   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:11 am

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Huzzah! Another snippet!::toasts the creator with a stein and throws it back in a long pull::Ah! Wonderful stuff.

It would seem, judging from the tenor of the conversation they've had so far, that the people of Sanctuary are aware of their standing with the republic and understand the situation. Their leader freely admitted to the vast improvement of quality of life, longevity and everything else that Haven had given them.

Compared to other planets that Haven rules this place is being treated like royalty. Exploitation can take a lot of forms and a lot of systems that Haven owns have been heavily exploited in many ways. For sure the Sanctuarians are exploited in some ways, but it appears to be more of a general thing than cruel ruling overlord sort of treatment. Especially given the uplift they've received.

There is definitely something to be said for remaining a hole in space that the MAN can't exploit or attack. A fact which the Sanctuary government might not only appreciate but heartily approve of. I'm sure that Prichart will come to an amicable agreement about when and how to reveal the place's location. In the mean time, maybe a few of the natives would like to come to Haven?

P.S. Off to bed RFC! You shouldn't be up at this ungodly hour.
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:51 am

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Fireflair wrote:Huzzah! Another snippet!::toasts the creator with a stein and throws it back in a long pull::Ah! Wonderful stuff.

It would seem, judging from the tenor of the conversation they've had so far, that the people of Sanctuary are aware of their standing with the republic and understand the situation. Their leader freely admitted to the vast improvement of quality of life, longevity and everything else that Haven had given them.

Compared to other planets that Haven rules this place is being treated like royalty. Exploitation can take a lot of forms and a lot of systems that Haven owns have been heavily exploited in many ways. For sure the Sanctuarians are exploited in some ways, but it appears to be more of a general thing than cruel ruling overlord sort of treatment. Especially given the uplift they've received.

There is definitely something to be said for remaining a hole in space that the MAN can't exploit or attack. A fact which the Sanctuary government might not only appreciate but heartily approve of. I'm sure that Prichart will come to an amicable agreement about when and how to reveal the place's location. In the mean time, maybe a few of the natives would like to come to Haven?

P.S. Off to bed RFC! You shouldn't be up at this ungodly hour.

Again, this seems to be taking place right after Eloise has taken office. The MAN isn't even a glimmer on the horizon yet. The enemy at this time is Manticore.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:05 am

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Somehow, I sort of get the feeling that RFC loves to see all the wild speculation/questions about plot direction raised by a snippet and then 'Poof', quietly droping in another little snippet just to show how wrong are our 'visualisations of the Cosmic all'
:lol:
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Re: Oh, what the heck . . .
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:49 am

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Unless I have missed something, Sanctuary is likely closer to the Talbot Quadrant than it is to Asgard. Combined with the Mesa terminus, the Calvin terminus ties approximately 25%-30% of the Verge to Manticore and Haven. That number nearly doubles once the Torch termini are mapped and the Erewhon terminus is included.

Manticore and Haven don't need to trade with the League, if such trade becomes too problematic. Access to the verge on that sort of scale will more than make up the loss of Old League, Shell and Protectorate business. Without OFS making those Verge markets inaccessible, Manticore, Haven and the rest of that alliance can grow rich building up those economies. Heck, Grayson's specialty in harsh environments will have at least a few systems that could profit from it.

Those Solarian multi-stellars relying on sucking the Verge dry will lose quite a bit of revenue. That loss will translate to a serious contraction in the aggregate GSPs of the SL. That sort of contraction will cause enough problems to get the movers and shakers of the League to back a reconciliation with the Manty/Haven Grand Alliance. That will take time of course. The immediate shocks to the League will seriously limit their ability to restructure their production enough to begin posing a threat to the Grand Alliance.

This all supposes the Calvin terminus is revealed. Of course, the Grand Alliance may well want to keep Sanctuary secret. Of course, that becomes an even greater moral dilemma for Haven as the peace with Manticore stabilizes. Even without that terminus, Mesa's terminus will provide more access for Manty merchant ship.
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