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The logistics of travel and immigration

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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:52 pm

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cthia wrote:I can't see a planet blindly accepting someone's word for it (I imagine it is part and parcel of what the immigration process is all about). An applicant could be a criminal element or an entire family could be seeking to escape prosecution from the League or any other planet or enterprise via Meyerdahl. And we just don't know if Meyerdahl, or any other high G planet, would insist on preconditioning before emigrating as does the Star Kingdom. There could be citizens living a completely grav plate and "portable G" life on Meyerdahl. There could also be "illegal applicants," those without heavy G mods which would not be pursuant to what the Star Kingdom sought as well as applicants who are actually from a lower than standard G planet. Never mind that such a deception wouldn't be advisable or smart of an applicant to do, but humanity is not always smart or logical in their actions or without criminal and deceptive ways for reasons known only to them.
The background checks for criminal status would be the same wherever you were immigrating from into the Star Kingdom. But there seems to be freedom of travel and freedom of relocation within at least the 3 planets (and now 4 with San Martin) of the 'Old Star Kingdom'.
Once you're a Manticoran citizen or legal resident if you want to move to Sphinx (1.35g) or Gryon (1.05g) instead of Manticore (1.01g) that's your business. The Star Kingdom's government isn't going to play nanny and say you can't. (And in fact even with the very limited 'on planet' view we've had we've seen some non-heavy world modified settlers. And going back to Honor's estimate barely more than 50% of those living on Sphinx have genetic mods to make them more compatible with heavier grav).


Oh and when the Harrington's moved to Meyerdahl there wasn't anybody there to check immigration status - they were part of the first wave of settlers. Any checking would have been done by the organization / group that financed the sub-light colony ship. Meyerdahl was an early colony -- from the text-ev it was settled before Earth's final war; and the wiki (always a dangerous thing to rely on without a specific citation to a book) claims as early as 500 PD which would put it barely after Cryogenics became widely available (and before the first hyperdrive)


But in the post plague years I'm pretty sure Manticore was recruiting more for skillset than for genetic compatibility optimization for Sphinx. (After all there was no shortage of space on Manticore back then either)
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by saber964   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:03 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I can't see a planet blindly accepting someone's word for it (I imagine it is part and parcel of what the immigration process is all about). An applicant could be a criminal element or an entire family could be seeking to escape prosecution from the League or any other planet or enterprise via Meyerdahl. And we just don't know if Meyerdahl, or any other high G planet, would insist on preconditioning before emigrating as does the Star Kingdom. There could be citizens living a completely grav plate and "portable G" life on Meyerdahl. There could also be "illegal applicants," those without heavy G mods which would not be pursuant to what the Star Kingdom sought as well as applicants who are actually from a lower than standard G planet. Never mind that such a deception wouldn't be advisable or smart of an applicant to do, but humanity is not always smart or logical in their actions or without criminal and deceptive ways for reasons known only to them.
The background checks for criminal status would be the same wherever you were immigrating from into the Star Kingdom. But there seems to be freedom of travel and freedom of relocation within at least the 3 planets (and now 4 with San Martin) of the 'Old Star Kingdom'.
Once you're a Manticoran citizen or legal resident if you want to move to Sphinx (1.35g) or Gryphon (1.05g) instead of Manticore (1.01g) that's your business. The Star Kingdom's government isn't going to play nanny and say you can't. (And in fact even with the very limited 'on planet' view we've had we've seen some non-heavy world modified settlers. And going back to Honor's estimate barely more than 50% of those living on Sphinx have genetic mods to make them more compatible with heavier grav).


Oh and when the Harrington's moved to Meyerdahl there wasn't anybody there to check immigration status - they were part of the first wave of settlers. Any checking would have been done by the organization / group that financed the sub-light colony ship. Meyerdahl was an early colony -- from the text-ev it was settled before Earth's final war; and the wiki (always a dangerous thing to rely on without a specific citation to a book) claims as early as 500 PD which would put it barely after Cryogenics became widely available (and before the first hyperdrive)


But in the post plague years I'm pretty sure Manticore was recruiting more for skillset than for genetic compatibility optimization for Sphinx. (After all there was no shortage of space on Manticore back then either)



Actually the Old SKM is made up of Manticore Sphinx Gryphon Basilisk San Martin and Lynx. I don't think you would have to many people immigrating to San Martin because of it extremely heavy gravity (2.7g).
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:02 am

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cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:Even if heavy gravity planets were not specifically targeted ( which would make total sense, btw), those that applied were most likely weighted towards those with heavy gravity experience. Just like when you place a job offer for an IT position, you tend to get resumes of people with computer knowledge.


And then you hire a guy with a shining resume of shining lies who you now have to fire because you failed to do a background check.

And now your job is in jeopardy because the idiot you hired doesn't even know a mouse from a rodent.

This is what interviews are for. To catch the liars before hires.

In the process of immigration, interviews or proof would be necessary to filter the nasty foam from the cream of the crop.
Theemile wrote:I'm not getting the sequitor here.

Manticore was taking everybody, giving everybody who came gravity belts, and offering government subsidities for house grav plates. However, one could assume that anyone reading the brochure for a heavy grav planet would be inclined to WANT to live on a heavy grav world.

It was aimed at Louis' theory that the Star Kingdom may have specifically targeted high gravity worlds which you seem to support. BTW, I do as well. Yet, if you are going to specifically target high G worlds then you must require proof. It is illogical to assume that you can trust applicants.

Of course, the Star Kingdom was accepting all manner of new blood needing to give the winnowed population an injection.

However, I would assume that certain skillsets specifically require high G tuned gene mods for the simple fact that the portable grav units cannot be worn in all situations. (I do wish we had pictures of the units and more information.)

Consider those needing to wear scba units, such as firemen, hazmat responders, deep sea divers, civil engineers, inspectors, and many other disciplines that would require native Sphinxian G acclimation because of confined spaces and or those conditions which may render grav units inoperable. Etc!

As a civil engineer, I can recall many situations where there was barely enough room for a regular body much less one clad with extra "gear" or even obese body weight.

I also seriously doubt that grav plates or portable grav units are going to work across the board for everyone who do not enjoy the gene mods. There is always going to be the % of non modified humans who are overly sensitive to any change in their environment. Like Stephanie's mom who couldn't handle zero G. Like people who cannot play on a child's swing w/o getting sick. Or ride on the merry-go- round without losing their lunch. Like ppl who cannot travel on a cruise or sail in a yacht or fish in a small boat because of severe motion sickness. Like ppl who cannot remain under certain lighting systems (fluorescent lights) without succumbing to severe migraines and or seizures. People who cannot fly because the cabin pressures aboard planes give them migraines as well and or inner ear problems and or sickness. People who cannot live in higher altitude regions (like Denver Colorado) where some even pass out. These are the people your planet wants to sort out, who'll simply become a burden to the planet.

Even though textev doesn't support it, I find it quite difficult to believe that artificially created gravity is going to work for everyone. That the units are going to get it exactly right instead of rightish.

And what happens in case of outdoor emergencies when one's portable grav unit has to be removed to administer first aid and or to facilitate a rescue (penned under wreckage and has to be cut out)?

Also, keep in mind that there are other natural considerations that must be taken into account that portable grav units cannot rectify, whereby high G world experience may be a must. I.e., things fall faster in a higher gravity world. The physics is a bit different and people who are already klutzes or accident prone may find higher G worlds dangerous or they may make it dangerous for someone else. The difference in the mechanics of sound can disorient, and there are those who naturally cannot afford to be disoriented. There are some people who suffer from seizures triggered by certain frequencies of strobing light, there are also those whose condition is triggered by a certain rhythmic sound. Sphinx or any higher than standard G environment simply may not work for them. Yet, they may be normally aspirated, higher G handicapped humans who would still do anything to escape the growing oppression, wars and corruption of the League, but already have been diagnosed as inappropriate for a high G setting. Or would choose to relocate on a higher G planet anyways because they are criminals hiding from the law -- and who would think to look for them on a high G world when it is well known that they are maladjusted for it because of certain eccentric deficiencies.

In a nutshell, I would imagine that not everyone who doesn't have high G mods or experience yet is seeking citizenship is going to be favorable to a high G planet even with technological assistance, period. IMO.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:24 am

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cthia wrote:However, I would assume that certain skillsets specifically require high G tuned gene mods for the simple fact that the portable grav units cannot be worn in all situations. (I do wish we had pictures of the units and more information.)


Based off the hang gliding safety units from the Stephanie Harrington books, the portable grav units can't possibly be larger than a modern belt pouch. Figure it to be around 7 inches long by 4 inches wide, by 3 inches tall.

This is also basing off the fact that from Crown of Slaves, we know both Anton and Viktor were using belt-mounted white noise generators for anti-snooping and small enough to be inconspicuous without deliberately drawing attention to them, to which I'd almost say belt-mounted cell phone size.

cthia wrote:And what happens in case of outdoor emergencies when one's portable grav unit has to be removed to administer first aid and or to facilitate a rescue (penned under wreckage and has to be cut out)?


Wasn't there something in that mini-story regarding the Gryphon Avalanche, with Honor and the very young Susan Hibson about the grav units? I remember Susan mentioning something about something malfunctioning and it would make it harder for the rescue crews, but I don't remember if was counter-grav or some other safety equipment.
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:52 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
Wasn't there something in that mini-story regarding the Gryphon Avalanche, with Honor and the very young Susan Hibson about the grav units? I remember Susan mentioning something about something malfunctioning and it would make it harder for the rescue crews, but I don't remember if was counter-grav or some other safety equipment.



The ski resort had pressors configured to shield the ski area from avalanches. But they had not spun up to full effect before being overwhelmed by the avalanche.
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:13 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
cthia wrote:However, I would assume that certain skillsets specifically require high G tuned gene mods for the simple fact that the portable grav units cannot be worn in all situations. (I do wish we had pictures of the units and more information.)


Based off the hang gliding safety units from the Stephanie Harrington books, the portable grav units can't possibly be larger than a modern belt pouch. Figure it to be around 7 inches long by 4 inches wide, by 3 inches tall.

This is also basing off the fact that from Crown of Slaves, we know both Anton and Viktor were using belt-mounted white noise generators for anti-snooping and small enough to be inconspicuous without deliberately drawing attention to them, to which I'd almost say belt-mounted cell phone size.

cthia wrote:And what happens in case of outdoor emergencies when one's portable grav unit has to be removed to administer first aid and or to facilitate a rescue (penned under wreckage and has to be cut out)?


Wasn't there something in that mini-story regarding the Gryphon Avalanche, with Honor and the very young Susan Hibson about the grav units? I remember Susan mentioning something about something malfunctioning and it would make it harder for the rescue crews, but I don't remember if was counter-grav or some other safety equipment.


If those truly are the dimensions of a portable grav unit then it certainly changes a lot of my perceptions. The dimensions you list make them quite practical for all but the most extreme of conditions. Thanks by the way.

Though I still wonder how effective they are across the board -- e.g., regarding that % of humans I mentioned upstream who are simply highly sensitive to the slightest deviation in their environment. What is the effective radius of "conditioning" of a portable unit? Do they keep the "augmented" area of gravity just about the body? What about when one extends one's arms? Do they interact with each other when they come into contact as they do when two people are close or touch? Do they prohibit children from playing, certain people from kissing?

Are there limitations that would make them impractical or render them inoperable?

More importantly, how effective are they at creating an exact 1 G gravity? Or is it "1 G ish." Is gravity the same from head to toe? Even about outstretched arms?

Enquiring emigrants want to know.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:27 am

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cthia wrote:And what happens in case of outdoor emergencies when one's portable grav unit has to be removed to administer first aid and or to facilitate a rescue (penned under wreckage and has to be cut out)?
For a healthy human an extra 35% weight isn't debilitating. For a 91 kg human it's the equivilent of carrying a heavy hiking pack. It's not the most fun thing in the world, but I've done week long backpacking trips with a pack that weighed 35% of what I did.

And in the heavy grav the weight is better distributed.

So even if you routinely wore counter grav most people would be able to function fine without it temporarily.

And we've been told that there are people who acclimatize to heavy grav worlds despite no genetic modification to assist that. They tend to look stocky and over-muscled, somewhat like
body builders, but even long term its not debilitating.

So the choices aren't genetic mods, counter grav, or nothing and even most people who routinely rely on artificial gravity for comfort should be perfectly cable of temporarily surviving without it.


that said, there are dangers to high gee worlds, and some people I'm sure would prefer to live or visit worlds much closer to Earth norms. No problem there.


I'd think in a society that values personal privacy that suitability for high exertion jobs on heavy grav worlds (the firefighters, etc you mentioned earlier) could be done by evaluating the candidates physical performance - much less invasive than genetic testing. (And also finds the possibly rare non-genie who can handle the work fine despite the gravity as well as the odd genie who can't hack the effort despite the advantages their tailored genes provide). Basically why do a more privacy invasive indirect test instead of testing directly what you care about - ability to perform those physical tasks at that gravity?
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:56 am

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Actually I just had a tangentially related thought.
Not back in the Plague Years, but I'd be a bit surprised if 1900s PD equivalent of our modern day firefighter's bunker gear isn't based off of some derivative of a skinsuit.

Think about it, it's designed to protect the user and still allow them to perform delicate tasks in hostile environments, it's got built-in air for hours, there'd be no risk of toxic fume inhalation, it's got comms and telemetry so you can communicate or find a firefighter if they're trapped or disabled, and it has some power assist to offset the weight and stiffness of the suit.
A firefighter wearing a skinsuit derivative would be dealing with less apparent weight and encumbrance than our modern day equivalent.
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:56 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Actually I just had a tangentially related thought.
Not back in the Plague Years, but I'd be a bit surprised if 1900s PD equivalent of our modern day firefighter's bunker gear isn't based off of some derivative of a skinsuit.

Think about it, it's designed to protect the user and still allow them to perform delicate tasks in hostile environments, it's got built-in air for hours, there'd be no risk of toxic fume inhalation, it's got comms and telemetry so you can communicate or find a firefighter if they're trapped or disabled, and it has some power assist to offset the weight and stiffness of the suit.
A firefighter wearing a skinsuit derivative would be dealing with less apparent weight and encumbrance than our modern day equivalent.

Why paint me pink and out me in a pen.

And assist with some of the extreme temperatures (covered by your hostile environments) but more specifically to my liking being a hazmat responder and my one big concern. The suits do a wonderful job in extreme heat and my worry was all for naught. They are quite expensive though, in the 3-5k range.

You're on to something there.


****** *


Question. Does textev list all of the four different gene mods of the Meyerdahl First Wave in detail? Were all of the various gene mod options available at the same time? If so, why wouldn't all recipients opt for the IQ enhancement?

Aside:
I wonder if the MAlign's Alpha line is a product built upon the fruits of this early labor? Of course there's no way of our knowing but I wonder how this IQ enhancement stacks up against the MA's Alphas.


wiki wrote:The Meyerdahl First Wave was the first genetic manipulation designed to make humans more adaptable to heavy gravity planets. (HH7)

There were actually four different modifications. The Harrington Clan descended from colonists who had undergone the Meyerdahl Beta modifications, as did about twenty-five percent of the human population of Sphinx. (HH9)

The Beta version of the Meyerdahl modifications included what was known as an "IQ enhancer", although it seemed to lack the aggressive side effects that plagued the "Super-soldier" modifications on Old Earth. Most of the Harrington descendants of Meyerdahl Beta recipients placed in the 99th percentile in intelligence tests, with only three known descendants rating lower than 95th percentile.

The Winton modification included a similar IQ enhancement. (HH9)

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:10 pm

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Emigrating off of the planet has its downsides. Prolong didn't become available until 1829 PD which means an awful lot of the Harrington Clan, for example, are buried on Meyerdahl, which means opportunities to visit and pay respects are practically nonexistent.

I wonder just how many thousands actually comprised the Harrington Clan settling in the Star Kingdom?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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