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The logistics of travel and immigration

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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Fox2!   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:12 am

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cthia wrote:
Same as currently with MA mods I'd presume. I'm not so certain that everyone would be willing to accept MAlign emigrants.

In the paranoid atmosphere at the time, I personally wouldn't be surprised if some planets required DNA samples. Proof in some form or fashion.


IIRC, most of the major Alpha/Beta/Gamma mods were prototyped in slave lines. Kind of like the Haut and ba in Cetaganda.

Could make it difficult to test for MA sleeper lines in a system with many escaped slaves.
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Fox2!   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:22 am

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saber964 wrote:Different nations have different citizenship tests and requirements. E.g. most countries in Europe have no birthright citizenship like the U.S. dose. But in Manticore's case they probably have certain requirements like employment before immigration. Refugees probably get limited support like six months of assistance to find employment or support while undergoing job training. IIRC the Adcock family in HoS has a good description also the Bu9 Letter from Stephanie had some stuff on immigration to Sphinx and the SKM.


The SKM provided some help to the escaped Sisterhood of Barbara (Judith et al), plus they received some funds from the sale of their ship, even if to ONI for use in researching Masadan pirates. And i think some of the women were paid for consulting with ONI and SIS on Masadan culture and politics.
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:15 pm

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What is the gravity of Meyerdahl?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Vince   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:47 pm

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cthia wrote:What is the gravity of Meyerdahl?

Exact gravity unknown, but definitely higher than 1 standard gravity. Stephanie was pretty clear about 1 gravity not being real high gravity aboard ship on their trip from Meyerdahal en route to Sphinx.
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:57 pm

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cthia wrote:What is the gravity of Meyerdahl?


I don't believe it even has been mentioned, just "heavy Grav." While she complained heavily about the gravity on the ship, Stephanie didn't mention a massive difference in planetary gravity in her letter "home". Here is a chart of known planets.

http://gotshifted.com/honorverseglossary/files/Gravity_Comparison_Chart.png
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:22 pm

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Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:What is the gravity of Meyerdahl?

Exact gravity unknown, but definitely higher than 1 standard gravity. Stephanie was pretty clear about 1 gravity not being real high gravity aboard ship on their trip from Meyerdahal en route to Sphinx.

There is a passing mention in Treecat Wars that Stephanie was "genetically engineered to live in a gravity well thirty percent higher than that of humanity's birth world".

That hints that Meyerdahl might be a 1.3 g world (vs Sphyinx's 1.35 gees). But David could have been meaning Sphinx and just rounding off - or for that matter the Meyerdahl mods were supposed to be general purpose high-grav modification; not tailored to any one environment. They may have just picked 30% higher as a reasonably broad upper limit to target even if Meyerdahl itself was lower grav than that.

(Which is a longer way to saying we don't know for sure)
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:31 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:There is a passing mention in Treecat Wars that Stephanie was "genetically engineered to live in a gravity well thirty percent higher than that of humanity's birth world".

That hints that Meyerdahl might be a 1.3 g world (vs Sphyinx's 1.35 gees). But David could have been meaning Sphinx and just rounding off - or for that matter the Meyerdahl mods were supposed to be general purpose high-grav modification; not tailored to any one environment. They may have just picked 30% higher as a reasonably broad upper limit to target even if Meyerdahl itself was lower grav than that.

(Which is a longer way to saying we don't know for sure)


It should be noted that Grav plates for homes were offered to immigrants with a government subsidization when Stephanie immigrated, yet the Harrington household didn't get them until Allison was pregnant with Honor, nor did they use the freely provided countergrav belts except when hang gliding - so the gravity difference was slight enough not to effect the Harringtons in their daily life.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:14 pm

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Louis R wrote:You don't seem to be grasping the fact that they came from _Meyerdahl_. While there may or may not have been institutional memory of the fact that the First Wave colonists were modded for the environment, the simple fact that the family had survived there for several generations would be all the evidence required.

-snip-


Indeed Louis. Yet, that very evidence would be required. Or, the same deception could be orchestrated that is pulled off by out-of-state college students JIT relocating in-state to live with a friend or relative just prior to applying for significantly lower in-state tuition. And since there is no MWJ at the time, and communication legs are in months, the scheme could be much easier to pull off.



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First, I'd like to thank Vince for sharing info of the existing article and its coordinates. I really didn't get the memo and I consumed it after the fact err initial thread creation. Also to kzt who mentioned it again and in doing so reminded me that I needed to read it. So I did. Very interesting consumption.

To soothe your worry Louis, I was aware that the Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave. And I don't doubt that Manticore "recruited" heavy worlders in light of needing new blood, which is in keeping with my thoughts that a planet would be remiss to not insist that an immigrant be "preconditioned." Yet, it is the exact same veracity of this fact that prompts me to believe that a planet would insist on incontrovertible proof in some form or fashion.

I can't see a planet blindly accepting someone's word for it (I imagine it is part and parcel of what the immigration process is all about). An applicant could be a criminal element or an entire family could be seeking to escape prosecution from the League or any other planet or enterprise via Meyerdahl. And we just don't know if Meyerdahl, or any other high G planet, would insist on preconditioning before emigrating as does the Star Kingdom. There could be citizens living a completely grav plate and "portable G" life on Meyerdahl. There could also be "illegal applicants," those without heavy G mods which would not be pursuant to what the Star Kingdom sought as well as applicants who are actually from a lower than standard G planet. Never mind that such a deception wouldn't be advisable or smart of an applicant to do, but humanity is not always smart or logical in their actions or without criminal and deceptive ways for reasons known only to them.

I would even more so assume that proof is required considering these facts, compounded by the fact that in the immigration handbook it states that entire clans were sought, where several generations of Harringtons could top out in excess of several thousand people arriving in-system who are "illegal" because of having lied. Illegal arrivals who are now completely dependent on the government for food stamps and grav plate vouchers, thinking they won't be diverted by a planet needing new blood.

Also, the MWJ wasn't discovered until after the Star Kingdom began to receive new immigrants which meant the entire process of the communication and immigration process, both ways, took months. I imagine Stephanie's letter took months. So how could an immigration policy rely on the word of off-worlders, especially when viruses could be introduced to the Star Kingdom from off-worlders as well?

In short, I was simply leaving room for the human element when I assumed that the immigration process would be predicated on certain steadfast policies written in stone, regardless of what an applicant may or may not claim or communicate over a distance of months.

All of which should conspire to explain the title of the thread, "The logistics of travel and immigration."

This certainly doesn't mean I'm correct, just giving the reasoning behind my madness.




Theemile wrote:
Louis R wrote:cthia,

You don't seem to be grasping the fact that they came from _Meyerdahl_. While there may or may not have been institutional memory of the fact that the First Wave colonists were modded for the environment, the simple fact that the family had survived there for several generations would be all the evidence required. In fact, i would put down real cash money on the proposition that Meyerdahl and other high-g planets were specifically targeted for recruitment when looking for new settlers for Sphinx. Suggesting, BTW, that the modern population has an interesting brew of designed and natural adaptations bouncing off each other. Probably not surprising that Alison has been keeping busy.


Even if heavy gravity planets were not specifically targeted ( which would make total sense, btw), those that applied were most likely weighted towards those with heavy gravity experience. Just like when you place a job offer for an IT position, you tend to get resumes of people with computer knowledge.

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Last edited by cthia on Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:40 pm

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Theemile wrote:Even if heavy gravity planets were not specifically targeted ( which would make total sense, btw), those that applied were most likely weighted towards those with heavy gravity experience. Just like when you place a job offer for an IT position, you tend to get resumes of people with computer knowledge.


And then you hire a guy with a shining resume of shining lies who you now have to fire because you failed to do a background check.

And now your job is in jeopardy because the idiot you hired doesn't even know a mouse from a rodent.

This is what interviews are for. To catch the liars before hires.

In the process of immigration, interviews or proof would be necessary to filter the nasty foam from the cream of the crop.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of travel and immigration
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:02 pm

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cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:Even if heavy gravity planets were not specifically targeted ( which would make total sense, btw), those that applied were most likely weighted towards those with heavy gravity experience. Just like when you place a job offer for an IT position, you tend to get resumes of people with computer knowledge.


And then you hire a guy with a shining resume of shining lies who you now have to fire because you failed to do a background check.

And now your job is in jeopardy because the idiot you hired doesn't even know a mouse from a rodent.

This is what interviews are for. To catch the liars before hires.

In the process of immigration, interviews or proof would be necessary to filter the nasty foam from the cream of the crop.


I'm not getting the sequitor here.

Manticore was taking everybody, giving everybody who came gravity belts, and offering government subsidities for house grav plates. However, one could assume that anyone reading the brochure for a heavy grav planet would be inclined to WANT to live on a heavy grav world.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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