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Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:57 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
cthia wrote:Honor's command style makes me wonder if it was developed and cultivated on Hawkwing? Was it patterned after someone else? Sarnow maybe? Substituting tact in lieu of "blustering battle steel?"

It also makes me wonder about her crew on Hawkwing and why we were never introduced to at least one of that crew during or after Fearless who became close to her then. Or at least respected her. Not even one?

Or did they all dislike her as well and the lesson she learned from that command was carried onto Fearless?

After all, she was rather young for a destroyer as well, especially in light of not yet having graduated ATC. Same conditions of jealousy present then as well.



Hint. There is a certain short story in which a young Honor Harrington serves under a cruiser captain from whom she acquires her signature phrase: "Let's be about it." Now, I'm not necessarily saying anything about role models, but . . . :roll:

Paint me pink and put me in a pen.

If she adopted his signature phrase, seems likely she'd adopt his command style as well. Duh!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:25 am

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It is very interesting to see just how much of an effect Bashfish(?) had on her for what was one deployment with him. one cut short at that.

really would like a story that covers some of her time between War Maiden and Broadsword.

we know generally a lot of what happened, she was Tac officer on a DN when there was an explosion and she rescued several crew, she commanded an LAC and i'm sure i've read about a third thing that we have no stories off though what escapes at the mo.
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by robert132   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:15 pm

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cthia wrote:[quote="runsforcelery
Hint. There is a certain short story in which a young Honor Harrington serves under a cruiser captain from whom she acquires her signature phrase: "Let's be about it." Now, I'm not necessarily saying anything about role models, but . . . :roll:

Paint me pink and put me in a pen.

If she adopted his signature phrase, seems likely she'd adopt his command style as well. Duh![/quote]

In my former life in the USN I've noted that we tend to adopt or emulate those things we admire most in those who we respect, especially if they are our leader or leaders.

Honor had no shortage of excellent leaders both at the Island and aboard ship (especially War Maiden) who were doing their very best to shape and educate her as a naval officer. That she proved willing to take those lessons and examples aboard as her own speaks well of her.

Just my humble opinion of course. I've worked for officers and Chiefs truly worthy of respect and emulation, and conversely some who I wouldn't trust to keep an eye on the starboard anchor if it were resting on the drydock floor while waiting reinstallation.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by roseandheather   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:47 pm

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Chapter 9

She's heeeeeeeeeere!!! :mrgreen:

Yes, it's the series debut of my darling Dame Estelle Matsuko, future Imperial Governor-General of the Talbott Quadrant and general all-round badass. I love her to absolute bits ("We know!!" shouts literally everyone who has ever encountered me on this forum, ever), and I did right from the start. I'll admit that she was (barely) superseded as my favorite Manticoran much later on when we started getting Michelle Henke as a focus character, but she still remains in my top ten favorite characters of the entire series and I don't see that changing anytime soon. She's as kind as she is courageous, as brilliant as she is both, and frankly to a non-math-y, non-combat type like myself, it's both a relief and a joy to see such an undisputed badass who is not a badass in the traditional, physical-asskicking sense. No, Essie's badassitude is of an entirely different bent, and I loved her from the get-go (though later on in the novel is when I truly fell in love with her - and believe me, you'll find out when :mrgreen: ).

I'm not the only one, however. Honor seems to take to Dame Estelle rather like a duck to water, and the feeling is very mutual. Essie gives Honor and readers alike a quality RFC infodump on The Current Situation, we are all appalled and dismayed that even Pavel Young should be so capital-E Evil as to neglect his, y'know, reason for being in the system, and Honor and Estelle come away from said meeting with far more hope than they'd had at the start.

....sorry? Did you expect any commentary on, er, what actually happened instead of just a rant about how much I love Essie? Here goes: Drugs Are Bad and Haven is Up To Something. :lol:

Next time: Asskicking ensues, and Rose loves Andreas Venizelos and Honor Harrington a lot.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:52 pm

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Looking around for the like button...
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:05 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Looking around for the like button...

Der ya go.Image

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:12 pm

cthia
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roseandheather wrote:Chapter 9

She's heeeeeeeeeere!!! :mrgreen:

Yes, it's the series debut of my darling Dame Estelle Matsuko, future Imperial Governor-General of the Talbott Quadrant and general all-round badass. I love her to absolute bits ("We know!!" shouts literally everyone who has ever encountered me on this forum, ever), and I did right from the start. I'll admit that she was (barely) superseded as my favorite Manticoran much later on when we started getting Michelle Henke as a focus character, but she still remains in my top ten favorite characters of the entire series and I don't see that changing anytime soon. She's as kind as she is courageous, as brilliant as she is both, and frankly to a non-math-y, non-combat type like myself, it's both a relief and a joy to see such an undisputed badass who is not a badass in the traditional, physical-asskicking sense. No, Essie's badassitude is of an entirely different bent, and I loved her from the get-go (though later on in the novel is when I truly fell in love with her - and believe me, you'll find out when :mrgreen: ).

I'm not the only one, however. Honor seems to take to Dame Estelle rather like a duck to water, and the feeling is very mutual. Essie gives Honor and readers alike a quality RFC infodump on The Current Situation, we are all appalled and dismayed that even Pavel Young should be so capital-E Evil as to neglect his, y'know, reason for being in the system, and Honor and Estelle come away from said meeting with far more hope than they'd had at the start.

....sorry? Did you expect any commentary on, er, what actually happened instead of just a rant about how much I love Essie? Here goes: Drugs Are Bad and Haven is Up To Something. :lol:

Next time: Asskicking ensues, and Rose loves Andreas Venizelos and Honor Harrington a lot.

I think I love her as much as you do rose. But don't ya forget about Michel Reynaud. He's actually the one who helped wake Honor's crew up. Seeing their Captain Harrington thru impartial eyes was an eye opener. Made them proud.

But Reynaud's line, paraphrasing...

"Tell me more about this Captain Harrington. But do take it slowly. I'm not prepared for a competent officer."

:lol:

Priceless!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by roseandheather   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:00 pm

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Chapters 10-13

Much asskicking ensues. :D

Not only is Honor's crew busy stirring up quite the hornet's nest in Basilisk, Honor herself has to kick the ass of Lois Suchon, sorry excuse for a doctor that she is. I don't miss her one bit.

I absolutely loved seeing the crew start coming into their confidence. Particularly Venizelos, Cardones, and Tremaine, given how important they'll later go on to be! Still waiting on Honor and McKeon to sort themselves out, but they do seem to be wearing away at the rough edges. Slowly. I'm also impressed by Honor's rather... unconventional thinking, particularly about the smugglers!

Meanwhile, this section also saw the birth of two beautiful friendships - the immortal Beauty & the Beast, Tremaine and Harkness, and of course Honor and Estelle. The latter in particular I was rather keen on, for no reason. :mrgreen: I'm particularly keen on how much their friendship has developed in a relatively short time - Estelle calling to "cry on [her] shoulder" in particular struck me, as I don't think Essie is really the type to go around talking about her problems to just anybody. But I think in Honor she sees, perhaps, not only a true friend but the closest thing to a confidante she's had - as the ultimate authority in the system, she probably doesn't have anyone she can truly talk to who isn't a direct subordinate. Honor must have truly been a breath of fresh air in that sense, as well.

We also got to see the reaction to Honor's activities from back in the home system, which provided some valuable perspective and insight (and an introduction to Honor's very future husband :lol: ).

Next time: Denver Summervale is Up To No Good, and Rose really, really loves Dominica Santos.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:20 pm

cthia
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Hanging out in the rose garden.

Firstly, I always meant to try to narrow Estelle's age down compared to Honor's. IINM, Estelle's a bit older. I'm trying to better prepare myself to be that fly on the wall of their relationship. "Honor and Estelle" is electric.


It seems the entire quadrant of characters were badasses rose. Even down to Michel Reynaud's secretary Trixie Hammit where the wiki informant informs us that 'She was obsessively punctual, and could be quite authoritative.'


Aside:
I was looking forward to the big screen serving up Dame Estelle's "sulfurous" conversation with Countess New Kiev's courier on a platter. Would've been delish!


But Major Barney Isvarian always made me want to effect a reread (me :mrgreen: with envy rose). Barney was part of that badassitude that you mentioned as well. Thing is, I thought the Basilisk system was meant for phuckups but there was some fine tempered mettle assembled there.

Yet they were all ex...
Wiki:
Mostly made up of ex-Royal Manticoran Army and ex-Royal Manticoran Marine Corps and ex-police personnel, the NPA's rank structure was similar to that of the Marines.


How did that come to pass? Who was responsible for throwing that party of eclectics together and why were there no active army or marine soldiers? ISTR an explanation but never got 'round to seeking it out.


I never brought this up, but now is as good a time as any I suppose. I find it rather interesting that both Estelle and Honor hit it off so well and are both of Asian descent, though I presume Matsuko is Japanese. Which ups the interesting quotient quite a bit, considering the Old Earth history of angst between the two.

To be sure, I do not expect the tension between Japan and China to survive into the Honorverse, I'm just saying it is interesting that it doesn't and would have been wonderful to watch the chemistry between the two onscreen. If indeed Matsuko is of Japanese heritage.



In Asia, Ill Will Runs Deep
By ODD ARNE WESTADJAN. 6, 2013

London


THERE are few economies and societies on earth more complementary than China’s and Japan’s. The Chinese are relatively young, poor and restless and fiercely committed to economic growth. The Japanese are relatively old and sated, but technologically advanced and devoted to guarding their high standard of living. Proximity would seem to make the two nations ideally suited to benefit from each other.

But Japan is afraid of China’s rise, because the Chinese economy is so much more dynamic than Japan’s. And China is troubled by Japan, because the island nation seems to act as an unsinkable American aircraft carrier just off its coast.

Over the last year, nationalists in both countries have fought a war of words over the disputed islands that Japan calls Senkaku and China calls Diaoyu. Japan’s new right-wing prime minister, Shinzo Abe, has alarmed Chinese leaders with his calls for revisiting its commitment to pacifism, enshrined in the American-imposed postwar constitution, and for making the school curriculum more patriotic.

The long shadow of history continues to haunt relations between the two countries. In Asia, World War II started in 1937 as a Sino-Japanese war; millions of Chinese were killed as a result of Japan’s expansionism. But that does not explain why young people in China and Japan today are more inimical in their views of one another than their forebears — even immediately after the war — were.

The real explanation lies further back. Japan’s rise in the late 19th century was seen as an affront by China, which had always felt entitled to the mantle of regional leadership. Mao Zedong and other founders of the Chinese Communist Party adopted these views and bequeathed them to their successors.

Most Chinese today therefore regard Japan’s wealth, and its position as America’s main ally in Asia, as results of ill-gotten gains. Even when the Chinese state was at its weakest, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, its elites felt that the Confucianism China had exported to its key neighbors — Korea, Japan and Vietnam — was the root of a common culture. Other countries in the “Confucian zone” were supposed to simply accept China’s natural leadership.

Beijing’s policies in the South China Sea today resemble those of the Qing empire, China’s last ruling dynasty, in the late 18th century. The emperor then, Qianlong, liked to speak to the “myriad nations” to the south as a father would address his children. Current Chinese leaders, who are exerting their influence in countries like Vietnam and Laos, echo his paternalism.

It is unlikely that China’s neighbors will appreciate this now any more than they did then. Qianlong got involved in a war in Vietnam in the 1780s that severely weakened his empire. Since then, the countries in the region have had their own waves of nationalism, often in response to Western colonialism. Indonesia, a country of 248 million, does not regard itself as “small,” even compared with a giant like China. It is bound to seek to counter China’s power unless Chinese attitudes and policies change.

For its part, Japan veers between accommodating China and competing with it. Even though Japan’s imperialism is a thing of the past, some of the attitudes that gave rise to it persist. Mr. Abe, the grandson of a former prime minister regarded by many Chinese as a war criminal, seems to embody such views.

Although most Japanese recognize the importance of trade with and investments in China, national security at the moment seems more important.

Japan’s sins of omission in dealing fully with its past hinder its present foreign policy, but they pale in comparison with China’s historical sense of entitlement to regional hegemony and its virulent new form of state-sanctioned anti-Japanese nationalism. Sadly, these chauvinist attitudes are unlikely to change under the new Communist leadership installed in November.

Even China’s diplomatic language emphasizes toeing the party’s line on history rather than discerning present-day interests, and it assumes that only one position in international affairs — usually China’s — can be correct.

China today has much more to gain from cooperation with Japan than from conflict. Harping about past sins and inflaming the dispute over the islands do little good. If China is to become the predominant power in the region, it can only do so with Japan, not against it.

As France and Germany have demonstrated, perceptions can change when national interest demands it. But shifting Beijing’s thinking from hierarchy to cooperation will require strong leadership and a nuanced understanding of national interests. China’s recent leaders haven’t inspired much hope of either.

Odd Arne Westad, a professor of international history at the London School of Economics, is the author of “Restless Empire: China and the World Since 1750.”

A version of this op-ed appears in print on January 7, 2013, on Page A19 of the New York edition with the headline: In Asia, Ill Will Runs Deep.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rosie Re-reads, Part 1: "On Basilisk Station"
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:17 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:What really irked me was the depressing anticlimactic end to Honor's climax in receiving her first hyper command? She was so happy, so exuberant being given command of Fearless.
Minor correction; the CL Fearless was Honor's second hyper capable command.

Prior to attending ATC she'd commanded the destroyer HMS Hawkwing (the same one later destroyed in Silesia during HAE). [Though even back then it was uncommon to command a destroyer prior to graduating the ATC course; and anything larger was unheard of]

I read this post and then kept thinking about it... Something kept niggling in my mind... I am also re-reading the series and just started Honor Among Enemies. Honor is arriving back in Manticoran space...

"She turned to the mirror and placed a black beret carefully on her head. The white beret which denoted a starship's commander was still packed away, waiting until she officially assumed command of her new ship, and she brushed the four gold stars on the left breast of her uniform. Each of them represented command of a hyper-capable vessel of the Queen's Navy, and despite all her ambiguity, she felt bone-deep satisfaction at the thought that she would shortly add a fifth."

So her Q-ship will be her fifth hyper-capable ship... Let's see:
- Hawkwing
- Fearless
- Nike
- Q-ship

That only adds up to 4, so there has to be another... I noticed similar textev when she got Nike in The Short Victorious War (she had 3 stars when she got Nike)...

"She inhaled deeply, squaring her shoulders, then touched the three gold stars embroidered on her tunic, and deep down inside something laughed at her own reactions. Each of those stars represented a previous hyper-capable command..."

We also have clear textev in OBS that states Hawkwing was her first hyper-capable ship: "She'd thought she'd died and gone to heaven when they gave her Hawkwing, for the middle-aged destroyer had been her very first hyper-capable command..."

What am I missing?
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