Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: filbert, MaxxQ, munroburton, Yahoo [Bot] and 7 guests

The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:55 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 7154
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Did Styles have a legal leg to stand on? Indeed, Harrington did not outrank him in their native navy.

IINM, Harrington was a mere Captain at the time in the RMN and when interacting with other RMN officers her Grayson rank of Admiral would not stick. Perhaps Styles could have defeated a court-martial?

If the situation were reversed, would it have sufficed for Styles to pull the same crap on Honor as she did on him?

If ever there was a stacked deck. So much for Styles' rights for an impartial jury. The legends of Harrington had preceded her. The entire island was a Harrington fan club.

wiki wrote:Military Tribunal on Hades


A military tribunal was established by Admiral Honor Harrington after her forces took over the Havenite planetary prison Hades in 1913 PD.

Taking over Hades created the problem of how to cope with crimes committed there by State Security personnel. According to the Grayson Articles of War, Admiral Harrington, as the senior officer of the anti-Havenite forces present, was obliged to punish those guilty of criminal conduct in her command area.
Contents

Applied law
Section Twenty-Seven of the Deneb Accords prohibited any trial of enemy personnel in time or war. Subsection Forty-Two specifically provided for wartime trials of individuals for alleged violation of local laws predating their capture, but prohibited ex post facto trials under the law of whoever captured them.

Most legal authorities interpreted that as meaning that those accused of violations should be tried in civilian courts following the end of hostilities. Due to a wartime situation Admiral Harrington decided to establish rather a military tribunal, and empanel it with officers drawn from those imprisoned on Hades. Possibly there were used some procedures from the Manticoran Articles of War, suitable for court-martial.

Accused StateSec functionaries were judged under procedures and provisons of the People's Uniform Code of Conduct and the Havenite Field Regulations. (HH8)

Established rules
There were at least two rules implemented by the members of the military tribunal:

  • 1. The rule of unanimous voting concerning capital punishments - this allowed Admiral Sabrina Longmont, of the People's Navy, to accept the invitation to the military tribunal board.
  • 2. Unanimous election of the president by the other members military tribunal - this way, the members of the tribunal emphasized the principle of impartiality, as Captain McKeon had never been harmed by StateSec functionaries on Hades.

Sentences of the military tribunal were endorsed by Admiral Harrington, due to her responsibility as the senior officer present. (HH8)

Members
Admiral Harrington appointed to the Tribunal:

  • Captain (SG) Alistair McKeon, of the Royal Manticoran Navy, elected to the position of the president
  • Commander Albert Hurst, of the Helmsport Navy, who represented the inmates of Camp Inferno
  • Captain Cynthia Gonsalves, of the Alto Verdan Navy, who represented the other military prisoners
  • Commodore Gaston Simmons, of the Jameston System Navy, who represented the other military prisoners as well
  • Admiral Sabrina Longmont, of the People's Navy, a political prisoner, the only member of the tribunal who did not join the anti-Havenite forces.

Admiral Parnell, Commodore Ramirez and Captain Benson declined invitations to the tribunal board, due to their lack of impartiality.

Appointing to the tribunal board Commander Hurst, Captain Gonsalves and Commodore Simmons, Admiral Harrington recognized their ranks obtained in the Helmsport Navy, the Alto Verde Navy and the Jameston System Navy[3]. (HH8)

Results
As a result:

  • at least 58 StateSec functionaries were sentenced to death,
  • at least one – Lieutenant of StateSec Kenneth Mangrum - was sentenced to 77 years of prison,
  • at least one case was dismissed – Commander of StateSec Ragman, chief communications officer, accused of torture and murder, committed suicide before trial.

StateSec functionaries belonged to Major General of StateSec Thornegrave's expedition were not judged. (HH8)

References

  • 1. ↑ eg. junior member of the tribunal in rank of Commander, while known, the most senior accused person was Commander also
  • 2. ↑ eg. admissibility of proofs
  • 3. ↑ The Star Kingdom of Manticore at least de facto recognized Havenite soveregnity in the Trevor's Star System, it was also mentioned Pegasus System and Gaston System were annexed by the People's Republic of Haven on a basis of their requests.


Edit: military → navy.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Vince   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:21 pm

Vince
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1352
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 pm

Honor was a Commodore at the time of her capture:
In Enemy Hands, Chpater 18 wrote:"Among the prisoners we've so far identified are Prince Adrian's commander, Captain Alistair McKeon, RMN, and the commander of the escort squadron attached to the convoy which evaded our attack, Commodore Honor Harrington. We also have several of Commodore Harrington's staff officers in custody." She paused again, almost as if she found what she'd just said impossible to believe, and then her shoulders twitched in the tiniest of shrugs.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
cthia wrote:Did Styles have a legal leg to stand on? Indeed, Harrington did not outrank him in their native military.

IINM, Harrington was a mere Captain at the time in the RMN and when interacting with other RMN officers her Grayson rank of Admiral would not stick. Perhaps Styles could have defeated a court-martial?

If the situation were reversed, would it have sufficed for Styles to pull the same crap on Honor as she did on him?

If ever there was a stacked deck. So much for Styles' rights for an impartial jury. The legends of Harrington had preceded her. The entire island was a Harrington fan club.

wiki wrote:Military Tribunal on Hades


A military tribunal was established by Admiral Honor Harrington after her forces took over the Havenite planetary prison Hades in 1913 PD.

Taking over Hades created the problem of how to cope with crimes committed there by State Security personnel. According to the Grayson Articles of War, Admiral Harrington, as the senior officer of the anti-Havenite forces present, was obliged to punish those guilty of criminal conduct in her command area.
Contents

Applied law
Section Twenty-Seven of the Deneb Accords prohibited any trial of enemy personnel in time or war. Subsection Forty-Two specifically provided for wartime trials of individuals for alleged violation of local laws predating their capture, but prohibited ex post facto trials under the law of whoever captured them.

Most legal authorities interpreted that as meaning that those accused of violations should be tried in civilian courts following the end of hostilities. Due to a wartime situation Admiral Harrington decided to establish rather a military tribunal, and empanel it with officers drawn from those imprisoned on Hades. Possibly there were used some procedures from the Manticoran Articles of War, suitable for court-martial.

Accused StateSec functionaries were judged under procedures and provisons of the People's Uniform Code of Conduct and the Havenite Field Regulations. (HH8)

Established rules
There were at least two rules implemented by the members of the military tribunal:

  • 1. The rule of unanimous voting concerning capital punishments - this allowed Admiral Sabrina Longmont, of the People's Navy, to accept the invitation to the military tribunal board.
  • 2. Unanimous election of the president by the other members military tribunal - this way, the members of the tribunal emphasized the principle of impartiality, as Captain McKeon had never been harmed by StateSec functionaries on Hades.

Sentences of the military tribunal were endorsed by Admiral Harrington, due to her responsibility as the senior officer present. (HH8)

Members
Admiral Harrington appointed to the Tribunal:

  • Captain (SG) Alistair McKeon, of the Royal Manticoran Navy, elected to the position of the president
  • Commander Albert Hurst, of the Helmsport Navy, who represented the inmates of Camp Inferno
  • Captain Cynthia Gonsalves, of the Alto Verdan Navy, who represented the other military prisoners
  • Commodore Gaston Simmons, of the Jameston System Navy, who represented the other military prisoners as well
  • Admiral Sabrina Longmont, of the People's Navy, a political prisoner, the only member of the tribunal who did not join the anti-Havenite forces.

Admiral Parnell, Commodore Ramirez and Captain Benson declined invitations to the tribunal board, due to their lack of impartiality.

Appointing to the tribunal board Commander Hurst, Captain Gonsalves and Commodore Simmons, Admiral Harrington recognized their ranks obtained in the Helmsport Navy, the Alto Verde Navy and the Jameston System Navy[3]. (HH8)

Results
As a result:

  • at least 58 StateSec functionaries were sentenced to death,
  • at least one – Lieutenant of StateSec Kenneth Mangrum - was sentenced to 77 years of prison,
  • at least one case was dismissed – Commander of StateSec Ragman, chief communications officer, accused of torture and murder, committed suicide before trial.

StateSec functionaries belonged to Major General of StateSec Thornegrave's expedition were not judged. (HH8)

References

  • 1. ↑ eg. junior member of the tribunal in rank of Commander, while known, the most senior accused person was Commander also
  • 2. ↑ eg. admissibility of proofs
  • 3. ↑ The Star Kingdom of Manticore at least de facto recognized Havenite soveregnity in the Trevor's Star System, it was also mentioned Pegasus System and Gaston System were annexed by the People's Republic of Haven on a basis of their requests.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:34 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 7154
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Thanks Vince, I was hoping it was indeed the case that I was wrong and actually padded her rank. This fact certainly would have made it worse in Styles eyes. To him, she was a mere Commander in their navy. Some presumptuous jumped up Commodore full of herself.

I didn't and don't like the character but I can certainly identify with his probable feeling that the universe had rolled off its tracks.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by munroburton   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:19 pm

munroburton
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1699
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

Textev in HAE(when Honor was still a RMN Captain) that the GSN had quietly kept her on the active service list as an admiral and that all Honor had to do was no longer be on active RMN duty to automatically revert to that rank.

So strictly speaking, her first hat became the GSN admiral as soon as HMS Prince Adrian surrendered, as she was no longer CO of that Cruiser Squadron.

Styles was a slam dunk for the death penalty. Even if he dodged the charges Honor laid against him, there was still the way he lost his entire command before the war started.

Heh. It occurs to me that at the time of the Great Cerberus Jailbreak, the GSN was the most powerful navy in all space and briefly held that distinction until the RMN had commissioned enough Medusas to reclaim pole position. Quite a contrast to the pre-war GSN - Styles was captured before Third Yeltsin's news could have reached him and they had only commissioned a few BCs and CAs by then.

I don't see any way to reverse the situation, except by removing Honor's GSN rank. In which case, Styles would've unquestionably been in command and no legal way around it. Honor likely saved his life - I'm certain one of the Inferno internees would've visited him late at night had Styles wound up in command.
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Greentea   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:35 pm

Greentea
Commander

Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

While Honor was only a mere Commodore in the RMN, she was a full admiral in the GSN, serving as their second in command. If the GSN officers are given parity to their RMN counterparts (as you would expect given the alliance), Honor vastly outranks Styles, especially as that was the uniform and rank she was using when Styles was liberated. She treats Styles as someone one rank below hers, and he only gets jailed for gross insubordination. Because Styles held such high rank before capture (and it could be viewed as murky from Styles' viewpoint the RMN=GSN) he was allowed to resign rather than face courtmartial.

cthia wrote:Did Styles have a legal leg to stand on? Indeed, Harrington did not outrank him in their native military.

IINM, Harrington was a mere Captain at the time in the RMN and when interacting with other RMN officers her Grayson rank of Admiral would not stick. Perhaps Styles could have defeated a court-martial?

If the situation were reversed, would it have sufficed for Styles to pull the same crap on Honor as she did on him?

If ever there was a stacked deck. So much for Styles' rights for an impartial jury. The legends of Harrington had preceded her. The entire island was a Harrington fan club.

wiki wrote:Military Tribunal on Hades


A military tribunal was established by Admiral Honor Harrington after her forces took over the Havenite planetary prison Hades in 1913 PD.

Taking over Hades created the problem of how to cope with crimes committed there by State Security personnel. According to the Grayson Articles of War, Admiral Harrington, as the senior officer of the anti-Havenite forces present, was obliged to punish those guilty of criminal conduct in her command area.
Contents

Applied law
Section Twenty-Seven of the Deneb Accords prohibited any trial of enemy personnel in time or war. Subsection Forty-Two specifically provided for wartime trials of individuals for alleged violation of local laws predating their capture, but prohibited ex post facto trials under the law of whoever captured them.

Most legal authorities interpreted that as meaning that those accused of violations should be tried in civilian courts following the end of hostilities. Due to a wartime situation Admiral Harrington decided to establish rather a military tribunal, and empanel it with officers drawn from those imprisoned on Hades. Possibly there were used some procedures from the Manticoran Articles of War, suitable for court-martial.

Accused StateSec functionaries were judged under procedures and provisons of the People's Uniform Code of Conduct and the Havenite Field Regulations. (HH8)

Established rules
There were at least two rules implemented by the members of the military tribunal:

  • 1. The rule of unanimous voting concerning capital punishments - this allowed Admiral Sabrina Longmont, of the People's Navy, to accept the invitation to the military tribunal board.
  • 2. Unanimous election of the president by the other members military tribunal - this way, the members of the tribunal emphasized the principle of impartiality, as Captain McKeon had never been harmed by StateSec functionaries on Hades.

Sentences of the military tribunal were endorsed by Admiral Harrington, due to her responsibility as the senior officer present. (HH8)

Members
Admiral Harrington appointed to the Tribunal:

  • Captain (SG) Alistair McKeon, of the Royal Manticoran Navy, elected to the position of the president
  • Commander Albert Hurst, of the Helmsport Navy, who represented the inmates of Camp Inferno
  • Captain Cynthia Gonsalves, of the Alto Verdan Navy, who represented the other military prisoners
  • Commodore Gaston Simmons, of the Jameston System Navy, who represented the other military prisoners as well
  • Admiral Sabrina Longmont, of the People's Navy, a political prisoner, the only member of the tribunal who did not join the anti-Havenite forces.

Admiral Parnell, Commodore Ramirez and Captain Benson declined invitations to the tribunal board, due to their lack of impartiality.

Appointing to the tribunal board Commander Hurst, Captain Gonsalves and Commodore Simmons, Admiral Harrington recognized their ranks obtained in the Helmsport Navy, the Alto Verde Navy and the Jameston System Navy[3]. (HH8)

Results
As a result:

  • at least 58 StateSec functionaries were sentenced to death,
  • at least one – Lieutenant of StateSec Kenneth Mangrum - was sentenced to 77 years of prison,
  • at least one case was dismissed – Commander of StateSec Ragman, chief communications officer, accused of torture and murder, committed suicide before trial.

StateSec functionaries belonged to Major General of StateSec Thornegrave's expedition were not judged. (HH8)

References

  • 1. ↑ eg. junior member of the tribunal in rank of Commander, while known, the most senior accused person was Commander also
  • 2. ↑ eg. admissibility of proofs
  • 3. ↑ The Star Kingdom of Manticore at least de facto recognized Havenite soveregnity in the Trevor's Star System, it was also mentioned Pegasus System and Gaston System were annexed by the People's Republic of Haven on a basis of their requests.
Cup of tea? Yes, please.
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Annachie   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:38 pm

Annachie
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1458
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:36 pm

There's two elements to Styles court marshal.

Firstly, Honor's rank. Yes, he had a very good legal arguement for the court marshal.
His political arguement however, both Manticor and RMN, sucked.

Had he half a brain and a lot less arrigance he'd have realized that it was Honor holding things together.
He fought that, and in doing so endangered the whole escape.

He had no hope of a fair trial either. But a good chance of really stiring up the shit with another jury room fight.
So sliding him away without a court marshal is best for the RMN.

As for the second, the way he lost his command may have had him in trouble with a court marshal, but the same factors above would have affected any potential trial here.
Worse, dor Styles, would be the public shaming his actions would have received in thr court, and likely outside as well due to leaks.

Better for Styles to just let this quietly slide away.

I suppose a better way would be to say he had a technical leg to stand on.




Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by pnakasone   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:54 pm

pnakasone
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 326
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:21 pm

munroburton wrote:Textev in HAE(when Honor was still a RMN Captain) that the GSN had quietly kept her on the active service list as an admiral and that all Honor had to do was no longer be on active RMN duty to automatically revert to that rank.

So strictly speaking, her first hat became the GSN admiral as soon as HMS Prince Adrian surrendered, as she was no longer CO of that Cruiser Squadron.

Styles was a slam dunk for the death penalty. Even if he dodged the charges Honor laid against him, there was still the way he lost his entire command before the war started.

Heh. It occurs to me that at the time of the Great Cerberus Jailbreak, the GSN was the most powerful navy in all space and briefly held that distinction until the RMN had commissioned enough Medusas to reclaim pole position. Quite a contrast to the pre-war GSN - Styles was captured before Third Yeltsin's news could have reached him and they had only commissioned a few BCs and CAs by then.

I don't see any way to reverse the situation, except by removing Honor's GSN rank. In which case, Styles would've unquestionably been in command and no legal way around it. Honor likely saved his life - I'm certain one of the Inferno internees would've visited him late at night had Styles wound up in command.



What really under cuts Styles is that Honor was successful in her plan to jailbreak everyone from Hades. Success earns large amounts forgiveness of sins in the military.

No needed to anything drastic just have have the chef medical officer sign off an on order declaring styles unfit for command.
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by drothgery   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:27 pm

drothgery
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1814
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

munroburton wrote:Heh. It occurs to me that at the time of the Great Cerberus Jailbreak, the GSN was the most powerful navy in all space and briefly held that distinction until the RMN had commissioned enough Medusas to reclaim pole position.
Not remotely. The GSN had a few Harringtons before the RMN's first Medusa, but it had way, way fewer wallers at that time. This was pre-Apollo; a Harrington might be worth more than two Gryphons, but it's not worth more than ten.
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by munroburton   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:19 am

munroburton
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1699
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

drothgery wrote:
munroburton wrote:Heh. It occurs to me that at the time of the Great Cerberus Jailbreak, the GSN was the most powerful navy in all space and briefly held that distinction until the RMN had commissioned enough Medusas to reclaim pole position.
Not remotely. The GSN had a few Harringtons before the RMN's first Medusa, but it had way, way fewer wallers at that time. This was pre-Apollo; a Harrington might be worth more than two Gryphons, but it's not worth more than ten.


A first-gen Harrington carried ~500 pods. At 10 missiles per pod, that's 5,000 missiles.

Textev tells us a Havenite SD(P) only requires 200-250 hits to be destroyed. Older SDs require even fewer. So GSNS Honor Harrington was good to take on 25 to 30 older enemy SDs.

As soon as the GSN had sixteen of them in service, they had the capability to destroy the entire Havenite navy alone. And with MDMs, they could do this with impunity, from far beyond enemy missile range.

Yes, the podlayer/MDM really was that big of a force multiplier. It just didn't have as much apparent effect in the second war because the RHN built their own versions(which then required Apollo to be overcome in a similar manner).
Top
Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:14 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 7154
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

I think one factor that stuck in Styles' craw was the fact that this Admiral from another navy was attempting to utilize and give orders to officers in his navy that should have given allegiance to him.

Another thing I didn't understand is why most everyone on the island had heard the legends of Harrington, with the sole exception of Styles.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse