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The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha

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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Greentea   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:57 am

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Styles may have heard the legends, but he seems to be the type to dismiss them outright. "No jumped-up captain could be that important or have done such things. The woman is a maniac." It is also possible that Styles was treated with kid gloves relative to other prisoners because he was the highest ranking RMN prisoner and kept away from the regular camps.

cthia wrote:I think one factor that stuck in Styles' craw was the fact that this Admiral from another navy was attempting to utilize and give orders to officers in his navy that should have given allegiance to him.

Another thing I didn't understand is why most everyone on the island had heard the legends of Harrington, with the sole exception of Styles.
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by munroburton   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:03 am

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cthia wrote:I think one factor that stuck in Styles' craw was the fact that this Admiral from another navy was attempting to utilize and give orders to officers in his navy that should have given allegiance to him.

Another thing I didn't understand is why most everyone on the island had heard the legends of Harrington, with the sole exception of Styles.


Echoes of Honor wrote:The fact that he'd been captured so early meant he'd been on Hell since before even the Battle of Hancock or her duel with Pavel Young. More recently captured personnel could have brought him up to date - in fact, for all Honor knew some of them had tried to do just that - but it hadn't taken. In his mind, the Grayson Space Navy was still some sort of comic opera, local-defense fleet and Honor was a mere commodore with delusions of grandeur. He didn't appear to believe that the Fourth Battle of Yeltsin - or, for that matter, the Battle of Hancock - had ever happened, and he regarded her claim to admiral's rank as an outright lie. As far as he was concerned, it was nothing more than a ploy to allow her to retain the command which should have rightfully been his, and her senior subordinates were all in cahoots with her to make it stand up.


Styles never even saw the Hancock aftermath. As far as he was concerned, the last he'd heard of Harrington was after the events of HotQ. He missed out on Hancock, the Young court martial and duel, her exile, Fourth Yeltsin, her return and success in Silesia.

Remember the perception Admiral Parks had of her, when she showed up at Hancock?

"Harrington," he murmured. "Now, isn't that just peachy?"
"She's an outstanding officer, Sir," Capra replied, and Parks' nostrils flared in a silent snort.
"She's a damned hothead with no self-control is what she is!" Capra said nothing, and Parks grimaced. "Oh, I know all about her combat record," he said testily, "but she ought to be kept on a leash! She did a good job in Basilisk, but she could have been more diplomatic about it. And that business about assaulting an envoy in Yeltsin-"
He shook his head, and Capra bit his tongue.
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:11 am

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As Manticore & Grayson were part of the Manticoran Alliance, (which has people from many different systems in addition to Manticore and Grayson) I would think that Honor would be on solid ground assuming command, given her position of Fleet Admiral in the GSN.

There would be no reason at all to think that Styles could have made a case against her.
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:05 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:As Manticore & Grayson were part of the Manticoran Alliance, (which has people from many different systems in addition to Manticore and Grayson) I would think that Honor would be on solid ground assuming command, given her position of Fleet Admiral in the GSN.

There would be no reason at all to think that Styles could have made a case against her.
The only thing that makes it slightly odd is that when captured she was actively serving in the RMN (though on loan to the GSN)

Her cruiser force, CruRon 18, was a GSN formation but promised to RMN's 8th fleet (once White Haven was able to activate it) - "it hadn't been passed formally under the command of Eighth Fleet, [so] it remained part of the Grayson Navy's Home Fleet"
But Honor was commanding it as an RMN Commodore, not a GSN Admiral.

If she'd been assigned that escort mission as a GSN Admiral (which she wouldn't have been -- way to senior to be leading a mere cruiser squadron) there'd have been no question at all about her ranking over Styles.

But unilaterally switching which Navy she was active in, while out of contact with both, is a little odd. But I think the circumstances justified it even if things hadn't played out well -- and as it turned out; well victory can justify many actions.
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by robert132   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:20 pm

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"But I think the circumstances justified it even if things hadn't played out well -- and as it turned out; well victory can justify many actions."

The "Nelson Touch" I think the Brits refer to that as.

Success has many parents, failure is an orphan. If it hadn't "turned out well" Honor's hanging might have become literal rather than just figurative. When captured by Tourville she was wearing the uniform and serving as an RMN Commodore, her GSN persona as a Full Admiral never entered into it.

If it had "dropped in the pot" as some other writers put it, Styles would have had his kilo or so of flesh with the blessings of Honor's political enemies ... assuming both he and she survived StateSec's reprisals.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:59 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:...Honor would be on solid ground assuming command, given her position of Fleet Admiral in the GSN.


As far as seniority is concerned, Honor's permanent rank of GSN Fleet Admiral made her senior to every other prisoner on Hades except for Amos Parnell. I think there were a couple of other admirals in Honor coalition of all prisoners on Hades that would have outranked Sykes for overall command, both PRN politicals and from conquered systems. I think the PRN admiral that chaired the courts martial would have had a claim if the rank and file would have accepted a PRN Admiral in command.
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:30 pm

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Wait just one woman-singing-in-labor minute. Harold Styles was a Rear Admiral. Is there no limit to the cronyistic good ole boy network?

Was he captured as a singleton? Where was his XO? His faithful crew? Or would they have been separated or disposed?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:58 pm

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cthia wrote:Wait just one woman-singing-in-labor minute. Harold Styles was a Rear Admiral. Is there no limit to the cronyistic good ole boy network?

Was he captured as a singleton? Where was his XO? His faithful crew? Or would they have been separated or disposed?


The entire Yalta picket under his command got destroyed with cold impellers in 1905.

Only the people who caused trouble or were needed to "disappear" were sent to Cerberus. Most of the officers would have been sent off to other prison locations, and the enlisted had their own prisons on other planets.

So there may be others from his command on Hades... or they may be elsewhere or dead.
******
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by shayvaan   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:13 pm

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cthia wrote:Wait just one woman-singing-in-labor minute. Harold Styles was a Rear Admiral. Is there no limit to the cronyistic good ole boy network?

Was he captured as a singleton? Where was his XO? His faithful crew? Or would they have been separated or disposed?


When Styles was brought in there was no mention of his staff and since he was being brought in to serve on Honor's staff there was no need for his.

Most likely they were separated after being captured. His staff were probably sent to regular POW camps, Styles was sent to Hades because of his rank (he WAS the highest ranking RMN officer they ever captured).
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Re: The Harrington vs Styles Brouhaha
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:06 am

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Wait just one woman-singing-in-labor minute. Harold Styles was a Rear Admiral. Is there no limit to the cronyistic good ole boy network?

Was he captured as a singleton? Where was his XO? His faithful crew? Or would they have been separated or disposed?


The entire Yalta picket under his command got destroyed with cold impellers in 1905.

Only the people who caused trouble or were needed to "disappear" were sent to Cerberus. Most of the officers would have been sent off to other prison locations, and the enlisted had their own prisons on other planets.

So there may be others from his command on Hades... or they may be elsewhere or dead.

Good point. I basically parsed that as every other ship but the flagship, his.

An enemy formation - as well as your own - is unto an egg, with the Admiral sitting in the center of the formation as the yoke. Good men in good ships died to save his Elvis-Santino-like yoke!

Well...and even if there are officers from his command on Hades they are more than a little likely to be vehemently perturbed with the idiot. For more reasons than one, least of which includes being responsible for their present predicament.

So even if the island was teeming with his crew, they were very unlikely to lobby for any chance that will place the very same idiot in charge of an escape plan - which would also include the very same idiot "driving" the "getaway car." LOL

Even if there was no history between Honor and Young and Young's crew sailed more in the days of Styles' yore, can you imagine Young's crew supporting him over Harrington, down on the planet?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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