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Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War

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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by kzt   » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:24 pm

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Duckk wrote:The UN and NATO aren't sovereign governments. The League, for all its warts, is.

So is Beowulf. It isn't a US state, it's a sovereign nation in a loose confederacy where the confederacy government has no right to get involved with the internal politics of a star nation and member star nations are allowed to negotiate their own treaties with other star nations.
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by saber964   » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:35 pm

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Duckk wrote:The UN and NATO aren't sovereign governments. The League, for all its warts, is.



IMO the SL is a lot like the EU.
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by Vince   » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:08 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Duckk wrote:The UN and NATO aren't sovereign governments. The League, for all its warts, is.



IMO the SL is a lot like the EU.

I tend to think of the Solarian League as a cross between the European Union and the United States of America under its first constitution, the "ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION AND PERPETUAL UNION between the states of New Hampshire,
Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island, and Providence plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia".
-------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by Theemile   » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:18 pm

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Vince wrote:
saber964 wrote:

IMO the SL is a lot like the EU.


I tend to think of the Solarian League as a cross between the European Union and the United States of America under its first constitution, the "ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION AND PERPETUAL UNION between the states of New Hampshire,
Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island, and Providence plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia".


Throw in a dollap or 12 of Byzantine bureaucracy, and we are probably getting close.
******
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:33 pm

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Duckk wrote:The UN and NATO aren't sovereign governments. The League, for all its warts, is.
saber964 wrote:

IMO the SL is a lot like the EU.


Vince wrote:I tend to think of the Solarian League as a cross between the European Union and the United States of America under its first constitution, the "ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION AND PERPETUAL UNION between the states of New Hampshire,
Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island, and Providence plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia".


That's a bit closer, but as I remember one of the problems with the Articles of Confederation was that it wasn't a commerce union. The Solarian League was created partly as an aftermath to the Final War and partly as a commerce union; the Solarian League Navy most likely got its start as an anti-piracy force.

I'm not entirely sure why Manticore didn't just apply to join the Solarian League. In terms of travel time, they're a lot closer to Sol than much of the core, let alone the shell.

Minor historical nit: The first agreement between the states (then the colonies) was the Articles of Association. That document was agreed by the First Continental Congress and was the authority by which the Second Continental Congress operated from May 5, 1775 until they were replaced by the U.S. Congress in 1792.
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by kzt   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:12 am

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JohnRoth wrote:I'm not entirely sure why Manticore didn't just apply to join the Solarian League. In terms of travel time, they're a lot closer to Sol than much of the core, let alone the shell.

When I proposed this the first time David said that by the time the WH was discovered, exploited, and reliable travel was possible the SKM didn't see any reason to deal with them and they were so far outside the SL that the SL wasn't interested. By the time the black clouds on the horizon were drawing near the SL was so corrupt that the had no interest, as the SL would have made it very, very expensive and painful.

And my proposal isn't that the SKM is playing a game to gain a few years respite, it's that they are in fact joining up with Beowulf in a formal union and changing their government, laws and other institutions to be acceptable to the people and government of Beowulf and the requirements of the SL. And as part of Beowulf they don't have direct representation to the SL, it means that the next time they allocate delegates Beowulf has 3 billion more people. It's an option with a whole lot of drawbacks for the SKM, but the lack of mass executions and not turning the SKM into a giant prison camp has some useful elements too.
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by Relax   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:13 am

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Honestly a very bad write up. There were 2 reasons and ONLY 2 reason Manticore won.

1) Haven wanted a Short Victorious War and was not willing to go for a knockout blow to begin the conflict as the cost($$$) was too high.

2) Haven changed forms of government in the middle of a war.
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:32 am

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Relax wrote:Honestly a very bad write up. There were 2 reasons and ONLY 2 reason Manticore won.

1) Haven wanted a Short Victorious War and was not willing to go for a knockout blow to begin the conflict as the cost($$$) was too high.

2) Haven changed forms of government in the middle of a war.

Kudos, for being the first to tackle the topic!

I got my eyes on you Relax.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by John Prigent   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:13 am

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The Solarian league is a perfect example of Pournelle's Iron Law. So is the EU. I'll let you USAians decide if the USA is one as well.

Cheers, John

JohnRoth wrote:
Duckk wrote:The UN and NATO aren't sovereign governments. The League, for all its warts, is.
saber964 wrote:

IMO the SL is a lot like the EU.


Vince wrote:I tend to think of the Solarian League as a cross between the European Union and the United States of America under its first constitution, the "ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION AND PERPETUAL UNION between the states of New Hampshire,
Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island, and Providence plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia".


That's a bit closer, but as I remember one of the problems with the Articles of Confederation was that it wasn't a commerce union. The Solarian League was created partly as an aftermath to the Final War and partly as a commerce union; the Solarian League Navy most likely got its start as an anti-piracy force.

I'm not entirely sure why Manticore didn't just apply to join the Solarian League. In terms of travel time, they're a lot closer to Sol than much of the core, let alone the shell.

Minor historical nit: The first agreement between the states (then the colonies) was the Articles of Association. That document was agreed by the First Continental Congress and was the authority by which the Second Continental Congress operated from May 5, 1775 until they were replaced by the U.S. Congress in 1792.
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Re: Honorverse Analytics: Why Manticore Won the War
Post by Joat42   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:55 am

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JohnRoth wrote:Interesting. Looked at the map. So that's where Visigoth is at. Ok. Asgerd is WHERE?


Yeah, I noticed that too. Added the new locations for Mesa and Visigoth but I can't reconcile the location for Asgerd since it is so different from any maps I've seen earlier.

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