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Honorverse Sensor Capability

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Re: Honorverse Sensor Capability
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:00 pm

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:
B-29s flew higher and faster than any fighter in the Japanese inventory, and their AA guns couldn't reach that high either.
...


That is quite incorrect. Literally bullshit.
B-29 absolute top speed: 575kph.
Cruise speed: 350 kph. This is the relevant one as otherwise range is dramatically reduced.

Ki-84 top speed: 686kph.
Even the Ki-45 twin engine fighter from 1941 can manage 540kph along with the majority of other fighters.
It´s 1944 replacement Ki-102 reaches 580kph.
The J5N(heavy bomber interceptor), despite being a design failure still reached 600kph.


No, SPEED as is was not the problem. The lack of SENSORS and coordination was.

It takes a LOT of time to reach that altitude with a fighter, 10-20 minutes or even more, and while Japan was not unable to build radar, what they had was far too few and with at best the landbased equivalent of a carrier´s air controller directing as they had no previous reason to develop the kind of systems the British and Germans(and to some extent the Soviets) created for reliable and quick interceptions.


And as for AA-guns, the Type 3 12cm and Type 5 15cm guns were both perfectly capable of reaching B-29 flight altitude, while the Type 14 10cm, Type 4 75mm and Type 99 88mm could reach there even though it was outside their effective range.

The problem of course was that the Type 3 didn´t enter service until 1943 and only 120 of them, while only 2 of the Type 5 were built in 1945 and by the time they were in service, most of the Japanese cities were already ruins after the US terrorbombing campaign.
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Re: Honorverse Sensor Capability
Post by robert132   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:07 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
OTOH against ships with no wedges (like Lenny Dets, Sharks, Ghosts) your own wedge is an extremely powerful weapons. You'd have to be a bit careful on how you approached to keep the wedge interposed against energy fire, but just brushing a LAC's 40x40 km wedge against even something a big and well armored as a Lenny Det would be devastating to the target and have no real impact on the LAC... (A bubble sidewall could save you from a missile's wedge impact, but I'm pretty sure it couldn't protect against a LACs)


One thing that's been true through much of history (wet navy-wise) is that the ship herself can serve as a weapon at least once (ramming) or as we saw in the 1980s and 1990s can serve as a minesweeper ... once. ;)

Your thought about the LAC wedge is a good one IMO, we've seen how an impeller wedge could be used in emergencies both as a shield (Roll Ship) and to "sweep up" massive bits and pieces of wreckage as in the Oyster Bay attack.

I think we've also seen where the wedge can be used offensively as you postulate. Positioning would be everything as would be speed, you DON'T want to give your target the time to get out of your way once you pitch "up" or "down" to smack him with something other than the vulnerable bow or stern of your ship or to be able to shoot holes in YOU as he dodges and lays the crosshairs on your bow, stern or side.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Honorverse Sensor Capability
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:24 pm

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robert132 wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
OTOH against ships with no wedges (like Lenny Dets, Sharks, Ghosts) your own wedge is an extremely powerful weapons. You'd have to be a bit careful on how you approached to keep the wedge interposed against energy fire, but just brushing a LAC's 40x40 km wedge against even something a big and well armored as a Lenny Det would be devastating to the target and have no real impact on the LAC... (A bubble sidewall could save you from a missile's wedge impact, but I'm pretty sure it couldn't protect against a LACs)


One thing that's been true through much of history (wet navy-wise) is that the ship herself can serve as a weapon at least once (ramming) or as we saw in the 1980s and 1990s can serve as a minesweeper ... once. ;)

Your thought about the LAC wedge is a good one IMO, we've seen how an impeller wedge could be used in emergencies both as a shield (Roll Ship) and to "sweep up" massive bits and pieces of wreckage as in the Oyster Bay attack.

I think we've also seen where the wedge can be used offensively as you postulate. Positioning would be everything as would be speed, you DON'T want to give your target the time to get out of your way once you pitch "up" or "down" to smack him with something other than the vulnerable bow or stern of your ship or to be able to shoot holes in YOU as he dodges and lays the crosshairs on your bow, stern or side.

Stop The Press! LOL

This is the exact same notion I proposed in the Crusher thread, whereby LACs would go out and push the envelope practicing maneuvers that will bring them dangerously close to enemy ships, simply as a skill to have honed in some unknown case of emergency. LACs are as close a notion to fighter jocks as the Honorverse has in space. They are supposed to be Top Guns should the need arises.

Scotty's LAC wing certainly were Top Guns. They were some Bad Pennies.

Just saying.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Sensor Capability
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:42 pm

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cthia wrote:
robert132 wrote:One thing that's been true through much of history (wet navy-wise) is that the ship herself can serve as a weapon at least once (ramming) or as we saw in the 1980s and 1990s can serve as a minesweeper ... once. ;)

Your thought about the LAC wedge is a good one IMO, we've seen how an impeller wedge could be used in emergencies both as a shield (Roll Ship) and to "sweep up" massive bits and pieces of wreckage as in the Oyster Bay attack.

I think we've also seen where the wedge can be used offensively as you postulate. Positioning would be everything as would be speed, you DON'T want to give your target the time to get out of your way once you pitch "up" or "down" to smack him with something other than the vulnerable bow or stern of your ship or to be able to shoot holes in YOU as he dodges and lays the crosshairs on your bow, stern or side.

Stop The Press! LOL

This is the exact same notion I proposed in the Crusher thread, whereby LACs would go out and push the envelope practicing maneuvers that will bring them dangerously close to enemy ships, simply as a skill to have honed in some unknown case of emergency. LACs are as close a notion to fighter jocks as the Honorverse has in space. They are supposed to be Top Guns should the need arises.

Scotty's LAC wing certainly were Top Guns. They were some Bad Pennies.

Just saying.

The problem is it's only useful against ships without wedges - which up until now has only be disabled (and likely abandoned) ships -- which you don't need much skill to smack into as they're not maneuvering or firing at you.
Plus it's either insanely dangerous for the target or for the LAC - depending on whether the target has a wedge up.
So not something anybody sane would let pilots practice (any more than they'd let destroyers practice ramming runs at real subs) but a last resort tactic everybody knows about and hopes never to be stuck in a position to be able to use.


Even against a spider drive ship it only works if nobody can land a shot on the LAC (from beams or missiles). So the LAC's stealth would also have to be good enough, with low-powered wedge up, that it and the spider ship almost bumped into each other before either spotted the other.
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Re: Honorverse Sensor Capability
Post by robert132   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:54 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:The problem is it's only useful against ships without wedges - which up until now has only be disabled (and likely abandoned) ships -- which you don't need much skill to smack into as they're not maneuvering or firing at you.
Plus it's either insanely dangerous for the target or for the LAC - depending on whether the target has a wedge up.
So not something anybody sane would let pilots practice (any more than they'd let destroyers practice ramming runs at real subs) but a last resort tactic everybody knows about and hopes never to be stuck in a position to be able to use.


Even against a spider drive ship it only works if nobody can land a shot on the LAC (from beams or missiles). So the LAC's stealth would also have to be good enough, with low-powered wedge up, that it and the spider ship almost bumped into each other before either spotted the other.


I never claimed it was a PRACTICAL tactic or easy Jon, any more than DD's practicing ramming real subs (which you CAN do BTW with smoke pots or bits of trash taking the place of a dead in the water sub) or sweeping mines the hard way (again practice your precision maneuvering, it can be fun and frustrating in an 8,000 ton DD.) 8-)

But like the tug skipper who tried to "sweep" up as much busted space station debris as he could after Oyster Bay using his impeller, you never really know what you can do until you have to do it.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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