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Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:48 am

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cthia wrote:I tend to agree with you WeirdlyWired.

Although, the notion is quite possible and it never would have occurred to me. OTOH, that is something that would surely require many moving parts.

1) It would require the callous, irresponsible, selfish, priviledged born brat to even care to research it. ...


1: I don't think Georgia worked for North Hollow or the Youngs when Pavel was at Saganami. IIRC she was an independent operator and frequent "person of interest" to the Landing PD.

2: A simpler answer to the question of collateral damage is:

A: Pavel (or any of the Youngs) wouldn't care about collateral damage

and

B: A Fatal Dose for a treecat would probably be an under-dose for an average human; what would kill a treecat would only make a human drowsy.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:02 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:I tend to agree with you WeirdlyWired.

Although, the notion is quite possible and it never would have occurred to me. OTOH, that is something that would surely require many moving parts.

1) It would require the callous, irresponsible, selfish, priviledged born brat to even care to research it. ...


1: I don't think Georgia worked for North Hollow or the Youngs when Pavel was at Saganami. IIRC she was an independent operator and frequent "person of interest" to the Landing PD.

2: A simpler answer to the question of collateral damage is:

A: Pavel (or any of the Youngs) wouldn't care about collateral damage

and

B: A Fatal Dose for a treecat would probably be an under-dose for an average human; what would kill a treecat would only make a human drowsy.

1) Thanks. I thought that Georgia was in Dmitri's employment for quite some time. The timeline and my memory are often at odds.

2) That is certainly the Youngin's MO. Highlighting an even colder SOB, certainly if he used one of his own friends unbeknownst, to deliver the payload.

B: Good point. However, any alcohol consumed or possible allergy could have evened the odds.

Late Edit:
On the flip side of that logic Harold, an average dose for a human could quite possibly kill a treecat. Which brings us right back to how did Young know of the correct dosage to deliver? Potluck celery?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:20 am

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cthia wrote:Late Edit:
...how did Young know of the correct dosage ...


Obviously, he didn't, since his goal was to kill Nimitz if possible. At a guess, the dosage was what he normally would give a small-to-medium sized human female. Probably one dose per celery stalk.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:25 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:Late Edit:
...how did Young know of the correct dosage ...


Obviously, he didn't, since his goal was to kill Nimitz if possible. At a guess, the dosage was what he normally would give a small-to-medium sized human female. Probably one dose per celery stalk.

But was it indeed his goal to actually effect a fatal dosage in lieu of simply incapacitating him or was his ranting merely the aftermath and residue of his rage thus symptomatic of late stage bellowing and bellicosity?

I'll have to reread that passage in hopes of getting a better feel, since Jonathan was kind and considerate enough to supply the appropriate cold case file: SVW. Thanks, by the way J.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by locarno24   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:16 am

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cthia wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Obviously, he didn't, since his goal was to kill Nimitz if possible. At a guess, the dosage was what he normally would give a small-to-medium sized human female. Probably one dose per celery stalk.

But was it indeed his goal to actually effect a fatal dosage in lieu of simply incapacitating him or was his ranting merely the aftermath and residue of his rage thus symptomatic of late stage bellowing and bellicosity?

I'll have to reread that passage in hopes of getting a better feel, since Jonathan was kind and considerate enough to supply the appropriate cold case file: SVW. Thanks, by the way J.



Interesting question. The thing is, Nimitz is a treecat, and treecats are recognised (legally and in RMN regulations, even if not by Young and co) as independent sentient beings.

Therefore his spontaneous and unexplained death would almost certainly provoke an autopsy and (one assumes) be treated as legally equivalent to homicide.

The fact that "Nimitz was ill and was left behind" was essentially a throw-away comment and nothing further was said about it presumably means no-one realised it was caused by his being poisoned.

(honour's perspective, OBS)
"He was only lucky he'd tried for her in the showers, when Nimitz wasn't around, for he would be far less handsome today if the treecat had been present."

[At the time that was written, it might simply have been that Nimitz didn't go into the changing room with his person)

(Young's perspective, SVW)
"He'd even taken the precaution of slipping cotanine into the celery one of her friends kept feeding to her damned treecat. He hadn't got enough into it to kill the little monster, damn it, but it had made him so sleepy she'd left him in her dorm room."

(Given the wording, I'm going to say he probably wouldn't have minded if Nimitz died)


Given the wording - he (or more likely a hireling) dosed the celery that Henke or someone similar fed Nimitz, it's most likely he didn't know the correct dosage, just went for as much as he could - maybe he only got hold of one "syringe" or whatever, or only had the opportunity to put one syringe on the bunch going to the room, or was worried that putting any more on would be detectable by Nimitz or the person feeding him.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by shayvaan   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:56 am

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It is also quite possible that Young's thinking changed after the fact.

It is quite possible that he might have been concerned with the possibility of an investigation when, to him, it was only a matter of putting Honor in her proper place. After she wiped the floor with him, it would have become more personal and much more vindictive.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:25 am

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kzt wrote:There is a reasonable likelihood that there is at least on drug that will effect native Spinx lifeforms that won't have any impact on humans.

True. And locarno24's quoting reminded me that David actually mentioned the drug used; cotanine. Now it's possible that is a coincidence of naming, and this is a totally different drug of the same name, but I'd guess not.

And it doesn't seem like cotanine has much noticeable negative effect on humans (at least based on that wiki article, and at the doses humans normally encounter). So maybe Young didn't need to be so careful to avoid the chance that humans might also consumed the dosed celery...
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by saber964   » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:49 pm

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On the drugged celery it might be as simple as Nimitz not eating enough. Young might have gotten someone to slip Nimitz the celery but Honor stopped him from eating more than a couple of stalks rather than say four or five that might have been needed to kill. Let's say Young drugged five or six stalks and Nimitz only ate two or three before Honor stopped him and Nimitz only received a dose sufficient to put him to sleep but not enough to kill.

IIRC Young has committed at least two rapes and one attempted rape. The two rapes were IIRC against Young's yacht captain when Young was 16 years old and a client of Richard Maxwell who was negotiating a out of court settlement.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:16 am

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cthia wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Obviously, he didn't, since his goal was to kill Nimitz if possible. At a guess, the dosage was what he normally would give a small-to-medium sized human female. Probably one dose per celery stalk.

But was it indeed his goal to actually effect a fatal dosage in lieu of simply incapacitating him or was his ranting merely the aftermath and residue of his rage thus symptomatic of late stage bellowing and bellicosity?

I'll have to reread that passage in hopes of getting a better feel, since Jonathan was kind and considerate enough to supply the appropriate cold case file: SVW. Thanks, by the way J.
locarno24 wrote:Interesting question. The thing is, Nimitz is a treecat, and treecats are recognised (legally and in RMN regulations, even if not by Young and co) as independent sentient beings.

Therefore his spontaneous and unexplained death would almost certainly provoke an autopsy and (one assumes) be treated as legally equivalent to homicide.
Indeed, and good point, part and parcel behind my post that Young risked a nasty investigation, being that the entire thing could have been miscontrued as an assassination attempt on Nimitz, the other half of the bonded pair that had not yet been the target of an assassination attempt to date—or misconstrued as an indirect attempt at getting to Honor, the two being so emotionally intertwined. I'd sure hate to speculate on the mental health of Honor being able to weather the storm of losing Nimitz. A fact that would have logically pointed to the Havenites.

The fact that "Nimitz was ill and was left behind" was essentially a throw-away comment and nothing further was said about it presumably means no-one realised it was caused by his being poisoned.
A fact that I always found rather odd. Mickeys, roofies and date rape type drugs are a nasty lot. The side effects are awful. It is immeasurably worse than a hangover. You wake up feeling as if you've been run over by a lorry after you've been run over by a lorry. Oftentimes the side effects are the worst of all and not uncommon to need a day or two, depending on the victim's body chemistry, to get back on balance. So I'm more than a bit surprised that the incident didn't get further attention. At the very least the following morning when Nimitz would most certainly still be a bit lethargic and not exactly himself.

<Were we ambushed by a Peep ship?>

(honour's perspective, OBS)
"He was only lucky he'd tried for her in the showers, when Nimitz wasn't around, for he would be far less handsome today if the treecat had been present."

[At the time that was written, it might simply have been that Nimitz didn't go into the changing room with his person)
Actually Honor, I think Nimitz could have done wonders for his looks. On the inside as well, where it counts. Talk about an attitude adjustment.

(Young's perspective, SVW)
"He'd even taken the precaution of slipping cotanine into the celery one of her friends kept feeding to her damned treecat. He hadn't got enough into it to kill the little monster, damn it, but it had made him so sleepy she'd left him in her dorm room."

(Given the wording, I'm going to say he probably wouldn't have minded if Nimitz died)


Given the wording - he (or more likely a hireling) dosed the celery that Henke or someone similar fed Nimitz, it's most likely he didn't know the correct dosage, just went for as much as he could - maybe he only got hold of one "syringe" or whatever, or only had the opportunity to put one syringe on the bunch going to the room, or was worried that putting any more on would be detectable by Nimitz or the person feeding him.
It could have been that Nimitz succumbed to the drowsiness before he could complete the portions, given that textev supplies the fact that Nimitz painstakingly consumed celery with impeccable manners a strand at a time.

Good question whether Nimitz could have detected larger doses, but my off the cuff guess would be no, since these drugs are odorless. Though I wonder about that, considering the keener smell and taste of a cat.

Late edit:
An assassination attempt had not been made at that point on Honor either. My badd.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:50 am

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saber964 wrote:On the drugged celery it might be as simple as Nimitz not eating enough. Young might have gotten someone to slip Nimitz the celery but Honor stopped him from eating more than a couple of stalks rather than say four or five that might have been needed to kill. Let's say Young drugged five or six stalks and Nimitz only ate two or three before Honor stopped him and Nimitz only received a dose sufficient to put him to sleep but not enough to kill.

IIRC Young has committed at least two rapes and one attempted rape. The two rapes were IIRC against Young's yacht captain when Young was 16 years old and a client of Richard Maxwell who was negotiating a out of court settlement.

Sorry saber, I overlooked this post where you pegged my logic that Nimitz may not have gotten the full dosage, because he is a slow methodical consumer of celery one strand at a time.

I knew he was a pervert! Which makes me think he keeps a ready supply of date rape drugs. Young is a case for Freud to bask in as well. His type is found on Law and Order: SVU. Young can't get it up unless he rapes or degrades a woman. Georgia mentions the sadistic side of him as well, he was a creep in bed. It was obvious that without it, Young's sexual prowess was as impotent as his uniform.

Honor certainly handled the matter as she should have. But, pardon my manners to all of the ladies out there other than Joan Rivers if she were alive, but can we talk, can we talk...

Honor could have just opened up for Young and said "Come on big boy, show momma whatcha got. Give it to me real good!"

And Young would have shriveled up like a prune, having lost control from losing the "needed" advantage of being the overpowering sexual aggressor in the situation.

Who says you can't learn anything from the boob tube?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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