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Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Thu May 18, 2017 12:26 pm

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Can we talk now?

There is one thing that I don't understand about Young's attempted rape. But firstly...

I understand that rape has no prejudice against age, color, health or social status. I am also aware that oftentimes it is a crime of "possession" and "control." Even at times one of passion, or may not have any rhyme or reason at all. Although I disagree that the perpetrator necessarily hates women. I also know that all manner of women are raped regardless of their beauty, sex appeal or lack thereof.

I also know that there are opportunistic rapes. E.g., if the wrong man stumbles into the woods and happens upon a severely drunken and naked woman he will take advantage of the situation even if he wasn't previously on the prowl for intoxicated cat or had it on his mind.

My wanton curiosity is so intense that I turned my desire for self gratification to the internet and found relief in the form of many interesting sites. I took the liberty to include one of them at the end of the post. But first, secondly...

In Pavel Young's case, I don't understand what specifically interested him about Honor? She wasn't particularly attractive (so I'm told). And Young didn't particularly have any hatred or animosity for her at the time, iinm. It wasn't an opportunistic or convenient rape in the traditional sense. The opportunity and convenience of the showers was forced by Young with some stalking and painstaking research. The rape attempt on Honor was premeditated. Planned. An awful lot of expense and risk was involved with it.

So if Honor was so unattractive, and Young didn't yet have a reason to do it out of spite then what was the driving force? It isn't that Young had been isolated in some form or fashion away from women for a significant amount of time as prisoners are. It wasn't as if Young was sexually starved. If it was all about "control" then he certainly could have found a better target to intimidate and overpower -- one who is not serving in the navy who possibly may also be proficient in hand to hand combat. There had to be "something" previously alluring about Honor. But what?

If indeed it is about control and a man is going to go to the trouble of finding a weak target, stalking her, dominating and raping her, why not find an attractive mark? Or one who is at least sexually appealing. Not attractive but sexy. Are we to assume that from the neck down Honor attracted men like a homing signal and Young was simply a Pidgeon?

Yet, the gawky horse syndrome shoots down an abundance in sex appeal from the neck down. Oh where are you when I need you Joan Rivers?

Another alleged assault by a Lord. Lawdy lawd, what is it about them Lords.
The truth about rape and sexual assault is ugly – and many women know this

Another week, another misogynistic comment by a high-profile man. During an interview with a national newspaper, Lord (John) Prescott raised a decade-old accusation that he had assaulted Linda McDougall by pushing her against a wall, saying that she was “built like a bloody barn door” and that the “fucking house would have fallen down” if he had done so. There you have it. Had McDougall been considered attractive by Prescott, perhaps he might have proudly owned up to such atrocious behaviour? Not on your life – men use all kinds of justifications for sexual assault on women, ranging from “she asked for it” to “I was doing her a favour” (the implication being that no other man would want her).

Prescott, who vehemently denies the allegation, is far from the only public figure who has dared to make such remarks. Earlier this year a senior Liberal Democrat council member, Philip Drury, resigned after posting on Facebook remarks insinuating that a 21-year-old female student was too ugly to be raped. Drury’s outburst followed the woman’s claims that she had been sexually assaulted in Italy, but police there believe she made the attack up. Drury wrote: “Not sure anyone would even want to think about it looking at her lol.”

Last December, according to a report of an interview with a newspaper called Zero Hora, a Brazilian congressman, Jair Bolsonaro, said of a political opponent, Maria do Rosário Nunes, that he would not rape her “because she is not worth it, because she’s ugly, she’s not my type. I would never rape her.”

The remarks followed an accusation by Bolsonaro that Do Rosário had previously called him a rapist, which she denies, and after her speech in which she condemned human rights violations committed during the US-backed military dictatorship.

Reacting to the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case, internet users questioned whether he would have raped his accuser because of how “ugly” she is and the French media rated her attractiveness. Of all the myths about rape, one of the most damaging is that men do it because they are overcome with lust for a super-model type of woman whom they cannot resist.

But rape happens to babies, elderly women and everyone in between. And yet we routinely conflate rape and sexual assault with conventional attractiveness – and perpetuate the notion that “ugly” women don’t get raped, and that attractive men don’t need to commit rape.

I recall an incident a few years ago. I had just been on TV talking about the disgraceful number of convictions for rape in Britain. On my way home I stopped off at the bank and was immediately asked, quite confrontationally, if I was “that women just on the telly about rape”. I confirmed I was, while handing my cheque to the cashier. “You should shut your mouth,” the man continued. “What’s it got to do with you? You’re too ugly to rape.” The cashier looked shocked, saw how upset I was, and reassured me by saying: “Don’t listen to him – of course you are not!”

More recently I was in a pub with a female friend one evening, engaged in conversation, when we noticed a man hovering next to us. “What are two beautiful ladies doing on your own?” he leered, preparing to pull up a chair. When we helpfully pointed out we were actually together, ergo not alone, we quickly became “slags” followed by “lesbians”. As we left the pub we heard the charmer shout: “Fucking ugly dykes, they wouldn’t even get raped.”

is not only vile sexists who hold such views. Some women buy into this too, which is unsurprising bearing in mind the amount of rape-denial propaganda with which we are inundated. When Andrea Dworkin wrote movingly about being raped in Paris a number of prominent feminists, who certainly should have known better, said in private to me that it probably had not happened because Andrea was not the type of women men would find attractive. This is nothing short of internalised woman-hating.

When I, along with many other second-wave feminists, proudly rejected beauty products and other feminine frippery such as high heels, we were judged and vilified by men who took great offence at us not dressing to their requirements. Over the years I have become used to being told by a certain type of man, on a regular basis, that I am “unfuckable” and therefore, unrapeable. I have, however, been raped and sexually assaulted, presumably by men with their eyes closed.

Being told we are too ugly to rape is such a common experience amongst my feminist peers, that the crime writer Val McDermid and I once spent a hilarious evening mocking up a feminist rock band named “2 Ugly 2 Rape.”

And it is not only feminists who come in for such bile. Disabled women and girls are incredibly vulnerable to rape and sexual assault and yet are told they are undesirable and asexual.

Rape is a sadistic act of punishment. We are raped by men who hate us, not by those who desire us so much they have no self- control. They do it to control us and then they tell us we are mad for imagining it happened because we are not good enough for them to violate, abuse and colonise. The truth about rape and sexual assault is ugly.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by robert132   » Thu May 18, 2017 3:23 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."


Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.


One quick note - I don't think Pavel would have had foreknowledge of her being a "genie." While it would probably be in her medical records I don't think it would be common knowledge except to key members of the Academy staff.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by robert132   » Thu May 18, 2017 3:40 pm

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Cthia wrote: But rape happens to babies, elderly women and everyone in between. And yet we routinely conflate rape and sexual assault with conventional attractiveness – and perpetuate the notion that “ugly” women don’t get raped, and that attractive men don’t need to commit rape.


Note the shared qualities of the categories of victim listed: Weak and usually unable to defend themselves, easy prey for the predator (usually, there are exceptions.)

Young might have categorized Honor as easy prey; skinny, younger than himself, probably physically weaker (WRONG!) because he either forgot about the strength and reflexes her heavy world upbringing would endow her with, and he did not know about her genetic modifications. She was "skinny" because not only was she physically active, her enhanced metabolism burned off calories almost faster than she could consume them. (A lot of women, my wife included, would like to have that problem. :mrgreen: )

He might even have foolishly thought that afterward she might even be grateful for the sexual attention an "attractive young man such as himself" paid her, being a "gawky and ugly" young woman who couldn't attract young men on her own.

Did I mention Pavel Young was an idiot? An overbred, oversexed and overeducated idiot who couldn't pass the advancement exam for the rank of Moron? Plus, using a technical term, he had a screw loose between his ears.

.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Fox2!   » Thu May 18, 2017 9:31 pm

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robert132 wrote:
Fox2! wrote:
Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.


One quick note - I don't think Pavel would have had foreknowledge of her being a "genie." While it would probably be in her medical records I don't think it would be common knowledge except to key members of the Academy staff.


True. i think there is textev someplace that says that most Genies don't go around advertising that they are. Of course, some one who would know the signs - metabolism, reflexes, etc. - might suspect it.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Fri May 19, 2017 3:40 am

cthia
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The workout of a San Martin footballer with a Terran in each hand.
Image
cthia wrote:My reservation, or uncertainty rather, is in factoring in the intuitive and possible legal differences between our present day society and that of the Honorverse. And leaving room for any needed leeway caused by any unassuming truths. E.g., I didn't want to overlook the possibility that the laws may be a bit different, in the manner that reflects the existence of enhanced humans. There is a thing even in our own society called undue force.

Here on Earth in the present, self defense is not a legal defense if there is no actual danger. The law says that you are allowed to protect yourself up to but not including the moment that an attacker is of no more threat to you and you can "escape." You cannot simply kill just because you can.

I am not saying that I believe that that would be the case here.

I'm simply bringing it to the discussion that in the Honorverse the laws may be a bit different. Where adult humans from San Martin are built like mountains and their young are built like tanks and bringing up the rear are Sphinxians who can eat a stack of fifty pancakes before, during and after kicking your ass.

After all, an adult female from San Martin who is also proficient at hand to hand combat relying on a "legal defense of murder" that she "felt threatened" from a Pavel Young may evoke more than a bit of flabbergasted AST :o NISHMENT, rustling in the seats of the jurors.

I'm just saying.

Little wonder that I don't recall textev supporting any of the traditional Terran contact sports. Heck, just hugging a San Martino would be a contact sport!

What about normal kids or adults simply playing around? If one friend hails from San Martin and the other from Manticore, how do the dynamics fair between the two? Most of us have experienced friends that like it physical. Now imagine you're a normal Terran and that friend is from San Martin. Can a normal human handle rough-housing with kids from San Martin? Would San Martins be allowed to play NFL football or hockey with Terrans?

Remember the Refrigerator Perry? "The Fridge!"
robert132 wrote:I remember "The Fridge." Him hitting me would have been like a truck hitting a very small speed bump. :lol:
cthia wrote:I imagine San Martin would have football players called Forklift Fred. He grabs ya, you're going for a ride. If a play results in a San Martin linebacker hitting a quarterback, that quarterback better, at the very least, be from a heavy world too or that very first hit would result in a "He's out, call in the stretcher."

"Out for the game, doc?"

"He's out for the season!"

"It's the first play of the first game?!"... Doc?!?"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by John Prigent   » Fri May 19, 2017 8:12 am

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I seem to recall that Young wanted to humiliate Honor because she had not bowed and scraped to his 'superior' status and had in fact turned him down flat when he first approached her. A mere Yeoman-born female not wanting sex with an aristocrat, she had to be put in her place!

Cheers, John
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by robert132   » Fri May 19, 2017 3:08 pm

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John Prigent wrote:I seem to recall that Young wanted to humiliate Honor because she had not bowed and scraped to his 'superior' status and had in fact turned him down flat when he first approached her. A mere Yeoman-born female not wanting sex with an aristocrat, she had to be put in her place!

Cheers, John


Instead he got put in HIS place ... Sickbay. And if Commandant Hartley had had his way Young's next stop would have been the Brig and then unceremoniously shipped home to the "loving" arms and ministrations of his father.

I'd wish very much to be a fly on THAT wall. :lol:

Excellent point John. Cheers!
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by robert132   » Fri May 19, 2017 3:10 pm

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cthia wrote:
The workout of a San Martin footballer with a Terran in each hand.
Image

Isn't he kinda sickly and scrawny for a San Martino? ;) :lol:
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Fox2!   » Fri May 19, 2017 8:04 pm

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John Prigent wrote:I seem to recall that Young wanted to humiliate Honor because she had not bowed and scraped to his 'superior' status and had in fact turned him down flat when he first approached her. A mere Yeoman-born female not wanting sex with an aristocrat, she had to be put in her place!

Cheers, John


A "mere Yeoman-born female" with ties to one of the meritocracy of Beowulf's most meritocratic families? A family with several members on the Planetary Board of Directors? That mere Yeoman born female? A member of one of the most distinguished families on Sphinx? That mere Yeoman born female? Bonded to a tree cat? That mere Yeoman born female?

If Harrington pere et mere had decided to stay on Beowulf, Honor would have been groomed for a career that would probably have put her on the BoD.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Fox2!   » Fri May 19, 2017 8:06 pm

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robert132 wrote:
Isn't he kinda sickly and scrawny for a San Martino? ;) :lol:


Especially for a San Martino in the RMMC. :D
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