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Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:05 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:And just because Nimitz may have urged her to come clean about what really happened, doesn't mean Honor would listen. Especially, when it was tied into something as emotionally charged as attempted rape. And when Honor could justify to herself that she kicked the stuffing out of him and this could splash onto the service if it came out into the open. Remember the rumor campaign and how they got her to accept command of HMS Wayfarer to get them out of a bind? It was predicated on how Honor wouldn't do something for herself, but would do anything else duty required.
And in some ways Honor probably felt that the physical damage she did to Young was an overreaction; she delivered the last few blows because she wanted vengeance not just to stop his unwanted physical contact, and that probably fed back into her refusal to report. If she'd used excessive force then she'd feel a bit guilty too and subconsciously all too likely to see it at least somewhat as offsetting offenses.

She'd be wrong about that - but it may have been a factor in her thinking... To the extent that you can categorize her choices after the attack as being thought through.


If she'd be unable to defend herself I feel certain that she would have reported the attack and rape.

I have one particular problem with this logic which may denote a hiccup in my own. I'm trying to wave it off, but my DNA won't allow me. For the record, I'll just go ahead and at least list my qualms with it.

On the one hand, I can logically grasp Honor's possible concern for the navy.

OTOH, Jonathan's sentiment stirs my Aristotelian self a bit much. Honor was too much of a perfectionist and upright naval officer with an unwavering sense of morals, scruples and values. This woman was raised and instilled with an impeccable sense of right and wrong and duty. This is the woman who could not back down from sicking Beauty and the Beast on every freighter suspected of smuggling pelts including the freighters owned by Hauptman; even after her XO warned her what it could mean to her career after Hauptman caught wind of it. Honor had to do it, even at the expense of what it might mean to her career she still had to do it. She was willing to risk her career over it, because of her sense of right and wrong and order in the universe.

Tester knows Young deserved Honor putting her foot so far up his arse that a brain surgeon was needed to get it out. Indeed it was wrong what Young did. But those last few blows was wrong that Honor delivered, she hurt Young unnecessarily.* She had a human right to protect herself even against an officer, but the last few blows were unwarranted and were done for the wrong human emotion of vengeance -- regardless of how much an onlooker with all of the facts agree with her. For Honor to withhold the confrontation from Commandant Hartley made her a hypocrite on some level and tarnished her 'Little Miss Right' self-made image of herself. Made her somewhat as guilty as bending the rules as Hauptman's freighters. Didn't she break some regs exacting vengeance with the last few blows? Isn't it against the regs to purposefully injure a fellow officer? If Young hadn't been such a wussy and afraid of embarrassment he could have went to an "improper authority" other than Hartley -- someone in the good ole boy network and told a completely different story. One which included a spurned woman because he didn't return her affections and that he simply wanted sex and she went berserk and used undue force.** Which is probably what he would have cried if Honor had reported it.

Jonathan_S wrote:If she'd be unable to defend herself I feel certain that she would have reported the attack and rape.
A notion that could be misconstrued as someone guilty of being a bit self-centered -- which she is not. She is someone with a character who is the complete antithesis of someone who is an opportunist -- or someone who would do the right thing only when it suited or benefitted her.

At any rate, I wonder if she would have reported it had Young been successful at raping her -- by somewhat drugging her with chloroform or some manner of date-rape drug.

* Does textev give the actual damage Honor delivered to Pavel?

** Undue force is a real issue. Even in our own society police officers are charged with having to skirt the line between the two and are charged daily across the nation with crossing it.

I have five sisters and my father insisted that they all learn how to protect themselves. They can all clean, break down and fire an assortment of weapons, beginning at a very young age. Two are fifth degree black belts and the other three are at least third. The law requires that they inform an assailant of their skills when possible and undue force beyond their own protection is unlawful. Go figure.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:53 am

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drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:a) She wasn't ugly. She was simply in a weird place in the prolong stage, hardly an uncommon phenomena.

It's not uncommon 'now' in the Honorverse. But 3rd gen prolong was very new on Manticore when she got it, and 2nd-gen and 1st-gen prolong recipients got prolong in early adulthood, not late adolescence and didn't have the same issues.

Drothgery, if you don't mind very, I'm still having problems with this. I must be missing some other related notion.

Sure thing, I understand that. But as you said it was new. Nobody at that point had received it. It was akin to what happens at the onset of a new strain of the flu shot. Everyone who can get it, does. I imagine that everyone at Saganami Island and the planet at large had gotten it. It, and the effects of it, should have been quite common in her social circle and everywhere else on the planet. Manticore is a planet of the rich and the richest. Everyone who was slated to receive the treatment would have been able to afford it. Which means every girl Honor met who was around her age should have been battling the same side effects.


Late edit:

I think I understand what I'm missing now, but not certain.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by drothgery   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:37 pm

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cthia wrote:It, and the effects of it, should have been quite common in her social circle and everywhere else on the planet. Manticore is a planet of the rich and the richest. Everyone who was slated to receive the treatment would have been able to afford it. Which means every girl Honor met who was around her age should have been battling the same side effects.

There's textev that Honor was one of the first 3rd-gen prolong recipients on Manticore. Remember that Honor is the daughter of someone very plugged-in to the Beowulf medical establishment (and who was one of the first 2nd-gen prolong recipients; most Manticorans around Allison's age and even a decade or so younger -- including her husband and even someone as wealthy as Hamish Alexander -- are 1st-gen). Almost all Manticorans Honor's age (and up to a few years younger) are 2nd-gen. There's no textev of how rapidly the 1st-gen to 2nd-gen or 2nd-gen to 3rd-gen transition happened in the general population of the Star Kingdom, but I think the only other person within a few years of Honor's age we 'know' is 3rd-gen is Mike Henke.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Vince   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:54 pm

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drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:It, and the effects of it, should have been quite common in her social circle and everywhere else on the planet. Manticore is a planet of the rich and the richest. Everyone who was slated to receive the treatment would have been able to afford it. Which means every girl Honor met who was around her age should have been battling the same side effects.

There's textev that Honor was one of the first 3rd-gen prolong recipients on Manticore. Remember that Honor is the daughter of someone very plugged-in to the Beowulf medical establishment (and who was one of the first 2nd-gen prolong recipients; most Manticorans around Allison's age and even a decade or so younger -- including her husband and even someone as wealthy as Hamish Alexander -- are 1st-gen). Almost all Manticorans Honor's age (and up to a few years younger) are 2nd-gen. There's no textev of how rapidly the 1st-gen to 2nd-gen or 2nd-gen to 3rd-gen transition happened in the general population of the Star Kingdom, but I think the only other person within a few years of Honor's age we 'know' is 3rd-gen is Mike Henke.

There is at least one other person with 3rd generation prolong besides Mike Henke who we know is close to the same age:
More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington wrote:Honor Harrington was born on October 1, 1859 Post Diaspora, at Craggy Hollow (the Harrington family homestead), County Duvalier, in the Duchy of Shadow Vale, Sphinx.
House of Steel, The Honorverse Companion 1921 PD, The Star Empire of Manticore, People wrote:Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette Winton is the sixteenth monarch of the Star Kingdom of Manticore. Born the year Basilisk was annexed, she was named Duchess of Basilisk in 1867 PD on her first birthday.
It looks like Honor is approximately 7 T-years older than Elizabeth.
House of Steel, I Will Build My House of Steel, August 1883 PD wrote:“No, it doesn’t. But you and Mikey have always been different, honey. That’s not a slam at him, either, but there’s no point pretending you weren’t pretty darned . . . precocious, even for a Winton. Probably your mom’s genetic contribution, now that I think about it.” Her eyes twinkled at him, and he shrugged. “Even so, though, you were only a year or so younger than he is now when you decided you wanted to get involved in the ‘family business.’ He’s got time to make up his mind about what he wants to do—or, at least, how graciously he wants to do it.” Roger grimaced. “I won’t lie about it and say I don’t wish both of you had more options, but there wasn’t anything I could do about that. Except for your mom and me never to have had either of you, and, frankly, I’m too selfish a man to’ve put up with a world without the two of you in it.”
Elizabeth’s eyes softened, and he snorted.
“Don’t worry! I’m not going all gooey on you. But it’s true. And I think he’s having a harder time with adolescence than you did. In fact, I’m sure he is. Your mom and I discussed it with Doctor Sugiyama earlier this year, and Mikey’s having heavier sledding with the prolong therapies than you did. Frankly, I was a little surprised by some of what Sugiyama had to say about it, to be honest. Your mom and I are both first-generation prolong, and we didn’t have to go through the hormone adjustment and monitoring you and Mikey have—we were both pretty much through that phase before we got the initial treatments in the first place, and I don’t think either of us really understood just how different it was going to be for someone like you, with the third-gen therapies. They explained it to us, but there’s a big difference between having it explained and actually experiencing it, and, unfortunately, Mikey’s experiencing it right along with us. Sugiyama’s working on balancing dosages, but he doesn’t want to medicate Mikey’s mood swings if he doesn’t have to. And, so far, it’s nothing we can’t cope with . . . even if it does seem to Mikey sometimes that I’ve turned into a slave driver instead of a father!”
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by drothgery   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:44 pm

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Vince wrote:There is at least one other person with 3rd generation prolong besides Mike Henke who we know is close to the same age:

I'd originally had a note that Queen Elizabeth was enough younger than Mike and Honor that she didn't really count, but decided to leave it out...
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Annachie   » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:45 pm

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Is there any textev that Mike received 3rd generation prolong treatments?

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:42 am

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I'd like to make a plea to the author. It should be ironed out which image he is going to settle on for Nimitz because...

  • It is very important and not just some minor detail.
  • It matters to the reader how we identify with Nimitz.
  • It also interacts with storyline in a psychological way.
  • It also affects my attitude of the colleagues and friends about Honor that distanced themselves from her. After all, Honor didn't have that many friends, if any at all except for Michelle. But she wasn't that ugly, if ugly at all.

So what was the problem? I can't imagine it being Honor's personality. I won't accept that it was her looks. So again, what was it?

IF the true image of Nimitz that the author endorses is that Cat from Hades...

Then I can suddenly understand why Honor had no friends. RFC makes it clear whether or not Honor is ugly. Time to straighten out the 411 on Nimitz' vanity, and the cats as a whole. Honestly, I can't accept that any adult, let alone child—like little Honor and Rachel Mayhew—being affected by the bonding mechanism, which would have had to override complete and paralyzing fear! If I came into contact with the latter images of Nimitz, I'd shit my pants and somebody else's too. There simply cannot exist these two distinctly different and polar opposite images of the cats. It taints the storyline in unimaginable ways for this reader. And it is significantly important to this Trinity. Pavel Young might even need some forgiveness for not liking an officer with a demon on her shoulders.

I can't imagine the demon version to be approachable at all, much less likeable to the point of the officers about Honor being endeared enough to him they'd want to sneak him celery. Who'd want to get close enough to a demon to give him celery? I'd be more afraid he'd eat me instead.

By the way, Honor was an ugly duckling.


A connection I'm just now making. Gees! :oops:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:07 am

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Mission of Honor Ch.25 wrote:"'Truth Seeker'?" Honor repeated, leaning back and looking deep into his eyes. "Is that what you've decided her treecat name should be?"

Nimitz nodded, and Honor's eyes narrowed. As a general rule, the names treecats assigned to humans usually turned out to be extraordinarily accurate. Some of them were more evocative than truly descriptive—her own, for example, "Dances on Clouds"—but even those were insightful encapsulations of the humans involved. And now that she thought about it, "Truth Seeker" summed up her own feel for Pritchart's personality.

Slow down, Honor, she told herself firmly. That's certainly the personality you want her to have, and so does Nimitz. So maybe you're both reading more into what you're picking up from her than is really justified.

And maybe you're not, too.

"And have you come up with a name for Thomas Theisman, too?" she asked.

His right true-hand closed into the letter "S" and "nodded" up and down in the sign for "Yes," but it seemed to Honor to be moving a little slower than usual. He looked up at her for a second or two, and her eyebrows rose. She could literally feel him hesitating. It wasn't because he was concerned about how she might react to it, but more as if . . . as if he didn't quite expect her to believe it.

Then he raised his right hand, palm-in, touched his forehead with his index finger, then moved it up and to the right. As his hand rose, his forefinger alternated back and forth between the straight extended position indicating the number "1" and the crooked position indicating the letter "X" before the hand turned palm-out and closed into the letter "S" once more. Then both hands came together in front of him, thumbs and index fingers linked, before they rose to his chin, left in front of right, thumb and first two fingers of each hand signing the letter "P." They paused for a moment, then separated downward, and Honor felt her eyebrows rising even higher.

"'Dreams of Peace'?" she said, speaking very carefully, as if she couldn't quite believe what she heard herself saying. "That's his treecat name?"

Nimitz nodded his head very firmly, and Honor tasted his confidence—his assurance—about the name he'd assigned. No wonder he'd been hesitant to share it with her! If anyone in the galaxy had demonstrated his unflinching, tough-as-nails readiness to do whatever duty required of him, however grim that duty might be, it was Thomas Theisman! He was the one who'd rebuilt the Republican Navy into a war machine that could actually face the RMN in combat. The man who'd planned and executed Operation Thunderbolt. The man who'd planned Operation Beatrice! The man—

Her thoughts paused, and Nimitz stared up into her eyes with an intensity which was rare, even for the two of them. They sat that way for several, endless seconds, and then Honor inhaled deeply.

Yes, Theisman had always done his duty. Would always do his duty, without flinching or hesitating, whatever its demands. But she supposed the same thing could be said of her, and what was she doing here on this planet, of all planets in the universe, if she didn't "dream of peace?" And the more she thought about it, about what it must have been like to spend all those years trying to defend his star nation against an external enemy even while he saw State Security making "examples" out of men and women he'd known for years—out of friends—the more clearly she realized just how longingly a man like Thomas Theisman might dream of peace.

I wish Elizabeth were here, she thought. Maybe she can't taste Ariel's emotions the way I can taste Nimitz's, but she trusts Ariel. And if he told her he agreed with what Nimitz has named Pritchart and Theisman . . . .

"You do realize that what you just told me doesn't make my decision any easier, don't you, Stinker?" she asked him with a crooked smile.


Is there anyone else besides me who wonders what treecat names would be given to some of the other characters?

As a general rule, the names treecats assigned to humans usually turned out to be extraordinarily accurate. Some of them were more evocative(1) than truly descriptive—her own, for example, "Dances on Clouds"—but even those were insightful encapsulations of the humans involved.


I wonder what a teeecat name would be for Pavel Young? For Shannon Foraker. For Admiral Truman. For both Hauptmans. For Honor's parents -- both who I find it difficult to believe names don't already exist for two of the two-legs most important to the species.

(1) evocative: bringing strong images, memories, or feelings to mind: "powerfully evocative lyrics"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:02 am

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[quote="cthia"]

snip

I wonder what a teeecat name would be for Pavel Young? For Shannon Foraker. For Admiral Truman. For both Hauptmans. For Honor's parents -- both who I find it difficult to believe names don't already exist for two of the two-legs most important to the species.


I seem to recall (although without actually looking it up I could be wrong) that Stacy Hauptman was named Crystal Mind by Nimitz & Samantha
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:21 am

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we also already have names for her parents i believe that Alison is Laugh Dancer and Alfred was Deep roots or something similar
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